Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 112967 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #900 on: July 20, 2017, 06:41:21 PM »
Most did not use before that slogan either.

Ok, so how are you measuring then?

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #901 on: July 20, 2017, 06:42:21 PM »
Ok, so how are you measuring then?
How did you measure this?
Really well.  Most ppl dont use
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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #902 on: July 20, 2017, 06:43:57 PM »
How did you measure this?

But I was making the point that you can't measure just by pointing to a lot of ppl who use and say it failed.
Nor can you measure by pointing to a lot of ppl who don't use and say it was a success.

There's a million factors, and I doubt you could measure.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #903 on: July 20, 2017, 06:44:57 PM »
Saying no despite an urge to do somwthing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-control
Self-control, an aspect of inhibitory control, is the ability to regulate one's emotions, thoughts, and behavior in the face of temptations and impulses. As an executive function, self-control is a cognitive process that is necessary for regulating one's behavior in order to achieve specific goals [2]
Addicts have few inhibitions or goals. Their cognitive process is skewed. Long story short, Wikipedia definition of self control is exactly the traits that are missing or defective in addicts.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #904 on: July 20, 2017, 06:45:25 PM »
But I was making the point that you can't measure just by pointing to a lot of ppl who use and say it failed.
Nor can you measure by pointing to a lot of ppl who don't use and say it was a success.

There's a million factors, and I doubt you could measure.
If the intent was to have drug use drop and that did not happen then it was not a success.
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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #905 on: July 20, 2017, 06:48:13 PM »
If the intent was to have drug use drop and that did not happen then it was not a success.

How do you know it didn't drop as compared to what it would have been.

Car deaths have gone up since seat belts were mandated.

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #906 on: July 20, 2017, 06:48:38 PM »
Addicts have few inhibitions or goals. Their cognitive process is skewed. Long story short, Wikipedia definition of self control is exactly the traits that are missing or defective in addicts.
Are you referring to someone who is already an addict? If yes then I fully understand that a 12 step program works by helping the patient have the inhibitions and self control he obviously did not have until then.
I think it will be very beneficial to you to make an effort to understand what someone is saying before arguing with them.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #907 on: July 20, 2017, 06:51:39 PM »
How do you know it didn't drop as compared to what it would have been.
If it has no visible and quantifiable benefits such as affecting the trendlines we cannot consider it to be a success.

Car deaths have gone up since seat belts were mandated.
That depends how you measure. Is it as a percentage of riders or total number?
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #908 on: July 20, 2017, 06:51:52 PM »
How do you propose teaching self-control and my corollary would be teaching abstinence in Catholic School that just results in different perversions
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #909 on: July 20, 2017, 06:53:10 PM »
How do you propose teaching self-control and my corollary would be teaching abstinence in Catholic School that just results in different perversions
To an addict? It seems that the 12 step program is fairly successful. Possibly in conjunction with other therapies and methods.
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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #910 on: July 20, 2017, 06:53:27 PM »
If it has no visible and quantifiable benefits such as affecting the trendlines we cannot consider it to be a success.
That depends how you measure. Is it as a percentage of riders or total number?

That's all exactly what I'm saying

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #911 on: July 20, 2017, 06:54:20 PM »
my corollary would be teaching abstinence in Catholic School that just results in different perversions
Does it? Is the rate of "different perversions" as high as those not practicing abstinence outside of Catholic Schools?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #912 on: July 20, 2017, 06:55:01 PM »
That's all exactly what I'm saying
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #913 on: July 20, 2017, 06:55:37 PM »
To an addict? It seems that the 12 step program is fairly successful.
No to your theoreticall pre-addict
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #914 on: July 20, 2017, 06:57:42 PM »
Does it? Is the rate of "different perversions" as high as those not practicing abstinence outside of Catholic Schools?
I'll send you a p.m. if I have to explain this one to you
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Offline henche

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #915 on: July 20, 2017, 06:58:11 PM »
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.

Based on a comparison that took all the other factors into account including trends, economic changes, etc.

If such a study was run on just say no, it was a huge waste of money,  and I don't trust that it really took everything into account anyway

Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #916 on: July 20, 2017, 06:58:17 PM »
No to your theoreticall pre-addict
I am not sure. On the other hand some studies have shown, and I have cited them previously in this thread, that there are some things which are advocated which can be detrimental to self control. Some attribute the failure of "Just say no" to exactly that. BTW, it is not "my theoretical pre addict" but yours.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #917 on: July 20, 2017, 07:00:25 PM »
Based on a comparison that took all the other factors into account including trends, economic changes, etc.

If such a study was run on just say no, it was a huge waste of money,  and I don't trust that it really took everything into account anyway
We can never take every single thing into account. Does that mean we can never judge something to be a failure?
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Offline CS1

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #918 on: July 20, 2017, 07:03:56 PM »
So how can a 12 step system (which is based primarily on self control) be of any help at all?

Are you referring to someone who is already addicted or the "future addict" that it is inevitable that they will become addicted?

The 12-step system can help them stay alive for one more day. Each day. They will not be cured. They will always need that support, continuous 12-step guidance, and they will almost always remain at a higher risk.

Just say no, right?
In that case "Just say no" cannot be judged as a success.

"just say no" works to say no to the very first cigarette, drink, or joint. After that first non-self-control of not saying "no" the first time, especially for heroin, it's a huge almost uncontrollable disease. Once they are hooked, the victims choose heroin over their own parents, children, and loved ones, as seen in the adult heroin victim car-deaths with kids in the backseat.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #919 on: July 20, 2017, 07:04:07 PM »
I'll send you a p.m. if I have to explain this one to you
I understand what you are referring to when you say "different perversions". My question is if the RATE of those engaging in these is the same as those not engaging in abstinence outside of Catholic Schools. Success cannot be measured by a standard of all or nothing.
Feelings don't care about your facts