Author Topic: Silent Killer  (Read 113107 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1120 on: July 24, 2019, 08:57:51 AM »
Just what I thought. You have no facts so you spew non-sense.
My life experiences do not care about your facts as they do not pertain to the circumstances at hand. Your comment about what the lecture should have been speaking about based on your understandings are asinine. He spoke about what the issues are in our community to attendees that live in our community. Who cares what your facts are. They dont pertain to the facts on the ground. It may seem like nonsense to you. But it is the reality where we come from.

Orthodox Jewish kids dont know how to do drugs. They dont know how to get arrested. And many other examples. Not that they dont...they dont know HOW to...i.e. they always make the situation worse than it should or could be.

When you do drugs as rebellion and then out of the blue get to do drugs as recreational the lines get blurred very quickly.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1121 on: July 24, 2019, 09:07:59 AM »
Here is what I said before you went off on your tangent.
I sure hope he addressed real drugs and not pot.
Pot is not the reason kids are dying in your community or any other community. Pot is not the reason kids are becoming addicts in your community or any other community. You want to dispute that with facts go right ahead. You can't and we both know it.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1122 on: July 24, 2019, 09:24:00 AM »
I think it's fair to say that most of what makes pot bad is that it is illegal. Scientifically, it's no worse than alcholol (in fact, alcohol in excess is much worse than pot). The concern is that the guy who buys pot is inherently doing something worse than the guy who drinks too much at kiddush every week. That pot is a gateway drug or not is not relevant - the type of person who has no qualms buying pot from a drug dealer is probably not much different than the person who buys meth.

If pot were legal, I don't think it would be as big of a deal in our communities. High schools would probably stop drug testing for it (I've never heard of a school giving a breathalyzer). As legalization in NY/NJ becomes more likely, I think in 5 years, we wouldn't have the same attitude.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1123 on: July 24, 2019, 09:27:07 AM »
I think it's fair to say that most of what makes pot bad is that it is illegal. Scientifically, it's no worse than alcholol (in fact, alcohol in excess is much worse than pot). The concern is that the guy who buys pot is inherently doing something worse than the guy who drinks too much at kiddush every week. That pot is a gateway drug or not is not relevant - the type of person who has no qualms buying pot from a drug dealer is probably not much different than the person who buys meth.

If pot were legal, I don't think it would be as big of a deal in our communities. High schools would probably stop drug testing for it (I've never heard of a school giving a breathalyzer). As legalization in NY/NJ becomes more likely, I think in 5 years, we wouldn't have the same attitude.
Pot will be legal nation wide shortly.
Never told my kids this but if they were going to do alcohol or pot I would hope they choose pot.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1124 on: July 24, 2019, 09:41:16 AM »
I don't think the problem in our community is pot. You can argue with that but just because many of the people who end up turning to harder drugs also did pot first, doesn't mean that the problem is pot. I know many people with varying degrees of frumkeit who smoke pot with varying regularity, some very often, some very infrequently but I don't see reason to think that it is the cause of greater issues any more than alcohol or anything else (as an aside, the abuse of alcohol in our community is also a major problem.) I think that the fact that the number of people in our community who are smoking pot is growing, is because of the shift of said people more towards the secular world which doesn't see smoking pot as something bad or something that should be stigmatized. Can it lead to bigger problems? Sure, but I think it's another symptom of the same problem, not the problem in and of itself. I think the majority of kids who ends up doing heroin may have started with pot but the reason they ended up doing heroin is not that they smoked pot first. This being said, I am not blind to the problem with opioids that we have in our community. My father happens to be a medical professional who works in this field, not in the Jewish community per se, but he has been involved with frum people before. (If anyone here would like to get in touch with him I would be more than happy to give his contact info privately.) I just don't think that blaming the problem on pot is doing anyone any favors, especially since the number of people who smoke pot in our communities is going to grow as it becomes more accepted and legal in the general population anyway. Just my $.02, you're welcome to disagree but this is how I see it.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1125 on: July 24, 2019, 09:42:23 AM »
Never told my kids this but if they were going to do alcohol or pot I would hope they choose pot.
Freakonomics Radio had a very interesting podcast a couple of years ago about this, worth a listen if you can find it.
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1126 on: July 24, 2019, 09:45:10 AM »
I don't think the problem in our community is pot. You can argue with that but just because many of the people who end up turning to harder drugs also did pot first, doesn't mean that the problem is pot. I know many people with varying degrees of frumkeit who smoke pot with varying regularity, some very often, some very infrequently but I don't see reason to think that it is the cause of greater issues any more than alcohol or anything else (as an aside, the abuse of alcohol in our community is also a major problem.) I think that the fact that the number of people in our community who are smoking pot is growing, is because of the shift of said people more towards the secular world which doesn't see smoking pot as something bad or something that should be stigmatized. Can it lead to bigger problems? Sure, but I think it's another symptom of the same problem, not the problem in and of itself. I think the majority of kids who ends up doing heroin may have started with pot but the reason they ended up doing heroin is not that they smoked pot first. This being said, I am not blind to the problem with opioids that we have in our community. My father happens to be a medical professional who works in this field, not in the Jewish community per se, but he has been involved with frum people before. (If anyone here would like to get in touch with him I would be more than happy to give his contact info privately.) I just don't think that blaming the problem on pot is doing anyone any favors, especially since the number of people who smoke pot in our communities is going to grow as it becomes more accepted and legal in the general population anyway. Just my $.02, you're welcome to disagree but this is how I see it.
I agree with what you said and let me summarize the pot part. Pot is NOT a gateway drug.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1127 on: July 24, 2019, 10:51:39 AM »
If I can put words in @hvaces42 mouth, I think the idea is that with a kid that is struggling, once they break the ice on certain actions there's no going back. And while pot might not be a gateway drug or a drug at all, it's a drug to them. Once these kids take the plunge and transform from non-drug user to drug user, all the drugs are kinda the same to them. They aren't looking to have fun, they're looking to break rules. It's a much tougher internal struggle to start using pot than it is for them to move pot to heroin, because they look at drugs as black and white. I wouldn't say the same for the rest of society.

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1128 on: July 24, 2019, 10:54:57 AM »
If I can put words in @hvaces42 mouth, I think the idea is that with a kid that is struggling, once they break the ice on certain actions there's no going back. And while pot might not be a gateway drug or a drug at all, it's a drug to them. Once these kids take the plunge and transform from non-drug user to drug user, all the drugs are kinda the same to them. They aren't looking to have fun, they're looking to break rules. It's a much tougher internal struggle to start using pot than it is for them to move pot to heroin, because they look at drugs as black and white. I wouldn't say the same for the rest of society.
Exactly. And CV cannot fathom the black and white nature of it in the frum community. So what may not be a gateway drug to 99.99% of the world is that and more to sheltered kids. As is alcohol as are many other seemingly innoccuous things. 
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Offline AussieMan

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1129 on: July 24, 2019, 11:09:36 AM »
Which is why although pot may be safer than alcohol, for our communities drinking is likely not as bad, as it's not breaking the rules/crossing the line in the mind of the person - even if he's getting drunk.

Having said that, once drinking crosses the line of shabbos/lchaim and moves to addiction, it's probably worse - so it's a fine line.

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1130 on: July 24, 2019, 11:11:52 AM »
If I can put words in @hvaces42 mouth, I think the idea is that with a kid that is struggling, once they break the ice on certain actions there's no going back. And while pot might not be a gateway drug or a drug at all, it's a drug to them. Once these kids take the plunge and transform from non-drug user to drug user, all the drugs are kinda the same to them. They aren't looking to have fun, they're looking to break rules. It's a much tougher internal struggle to start using pot than it is for them to move pot to heroin, because they look at drugs as black and white. I wouldn't say the same for the rest of society.
Then be grateful there is pot or they would skip that and go right to a harder drug. Now address the real problem and take pot out of the equation.
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1131 on: July 24, 2019, 11:19:21 AM »
Then be grateful there is pot or they would skip that and go right to a harder drug. Now address the real problem and take pot out of the equation.
Back to the real problem...the rug isnt big enough to sweep everything under.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1132 on: July 24, 2019, 11:19:40 AM »

When someone is an addict and the prohibited or formerly prohibited vice is now more readily available. Or, if the social stigma of the vice has been diminished or removed entirely. What do you think will happen? Of course they will indulge in the excess.
And here i remember you talking about removing stigmas
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1133 on: July 24, 2019, 11:21:41 AM »
Back to the real problem...the rug isnt big enough to sweep everything under.
Finally!!!
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Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1134 on: July 24, 2019, 11:22:49 AM »
And here i remember you talking about removing stigmas
Whaaaaa?!?!?! Stigmas of getting proper help vs....
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Offline aygart

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1135 on: July 24, 2019, 11:25:07 AM »
Whaaaaa?!?!?! Stigmas of getting proper help vs....
There is no stigma against the help only against where anyone getting help must have been before. You cannot have the stigma for one without the other. THey are one and the same as far as stigmas go.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline hvaces42

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1136 on: July 24, 2019, 11:34:57 AM »
There is no stigma against the help only against where anyone getting help must have been before. You cannot have the stigma for one without the other. THey are one and the same as far as stigmas go.
Again, I think you misunderstood. The stigma of one who smokes pot as being labled a "druggy" or [insert other label here] is disappearing. Stigma in this instance is the lowering of the boundaries. Meaning one is not viewed poorly if they smoke pot regularly in our community. 

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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1137 on: July 24, 2019, 11:37:33 AM »
Again, I think you misunderstood.
Seems to be a lot of that going around.  :)
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1138 on: July 24, 2019, 11:52:51 AM »
Seems to be a lot of that going around.  :)

Plenty. Time for a DO to discuss things. It is said that more than 50% of communication is non-verbal, a lot gets lost in writing, especially when a lot of the writing is done on mobile devices, and without full attention.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline CountValentine

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Re: Silent Killer
« Reply #1139 on: July 24, 2019, 11:57:31 AM »
Plenty. Time for a DO to discuss things. It is said that more than 50% of communication is non-verbal, a lot gets lost in writing, especially when a lot of the writing is done on mobile devices, and without full attention.
Milts 2pm?
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