Nine Days -- What's on Your Menu?

[yitzgar]

[yitzgar]

I'm not sure what the exact criteria is, but if the meat/wine is being consumed as a celebration of finishing the masechta, you can argue even virtual participation isn't needed. IINM Shabbos leftovers can be eaten after Shabbos as well, so presumably one can eat food that comes from a siyum even without being present when the mesayem eats it.

It's definitely a slippery slope though.

Source for shabbos leftovers?

[Naftuli19]

[Abebee]

Party of 10? Including food?

[Euclid]

Impossible burgers (on sale for $6.99 in stop and shop)
Homemade falafel (Kenji's recipe)
Black bean burgers (also Kenji's recipe)
Salmon

[mmgfarb]

I'm not sure what the exact criteria is, but if the meat/wine is being consumed as a celebration of finishing the masechta, you can argue even virtual participation isn't needed. IINM Shabbos leftovers can be eaten after Shabbos as well, so presumably one can eat food that comes from a siyum even without being present when the mesayem eats it.

It's definitely a slippery slope though.

וכתב בספר א"ר דבסיום דוקא אם בזמן אחר היה ג"כ עושה סעודה לסיום וגם לא ימהר בלימודו כדי להשלים בזמן ההיא רק שנזדמן עפ"י שיעור קבוע שיש לו לסיים בזמן ההוא. וסעודת בר מצוה אם הביא שתי שערות הוי סעודת מצוה וכן אם דורש הבר מצוה מעניינא דבר מצוה הוי ג"כ סעודת מצוה (יש"ש ב"ק פ"ז סי' ל"ז). וסעודה בלילה שלפני המילה במגן אברהם בסי' תר"ו ס"ק י"ג כתב בשם תשובת נ"ש דהוי סעודת מצוה וסיים לכן יש להחמיר לענין נדר משמע דוקא לענין נדר וא"כ י"ל לענין אכילת בשר דאינו אלא מנהג יש להקל ובא"ר מסופק בזה) ומלבד הקרובים הפסולים לעדות ומלבד הבעלי מצוה מותר להוסיף עוד י' משום ריעות דהיינו אלו שדרך בעל אותה סעודה להזמין אותם שאר פעמים משום ריעות אבל אלו שאין מזמן אותם בשום פעם אלא שהולכים רק לשתות עבירה היא בידם (הלבוש ועיין א"ר)

  ,חיי אדם, קל״ג, כלל טז

וסיום מסכת - ומ"מ אם לא נזדמן בלימודו הסיום לא ימהר או יאחר בשביל זה. וגם אם לא היה עושה סעודה בשאר הימים אפשר שלא יעשנה גם עתה. אכן אם נזדמן כראוי מותרין לאכול אף אותן שלא למדו עמהן אם היו הולכין ובאין גם בזמן אחר משום ריעות

משנה ברורה, תקנ״א, עג

Please explain to me what about this is not clear.

[PlatinumGuy]

  ,חיי אדם, קל״ג, כלל טז משנה ברורה, תקנ״א, עג

Please explain to me what about this is not clear.

The definition of אותה סעודה. Where do you draw line? What if the Baal Hasiyum does not eat, but others do? What if he leaves before they start eating? Do you need everybody to eat the same dish? What if you send food from the siyum to somebody outside (shabbos [and Rosh Chodesh] leftovers are mutter)? One can argue any meal that is intended to celebrate the siyum would be considered a סעודת סיום.

ETA: Here is some discussion amongst the Poskim if one needs to hear the siyum itself. R Elyashiv apparently held that although normally one would need to hear the siyum, if he participated in preparing for it he is considered part of the Seuda even without hearing it.

Now imagine somebody who made a siyum hashas that he learnt over 15 years and his wife can only participate by Skype for whatever reason, but she sits down to celebrate and eats the same food that she prepared herself for the meal. Would you not agree there is room to say she is also eating a seudas mitzvah even while being physically separate?

 https://www.dirshu.co.il/סיום-בתשעת-הימים/

[yitzgar]

Source for shabbos leftovers?

Bump? Platinumguy

[PlatinumGuy]

Is a virtual siyum really acceptable to use as an excuse to eat meat?

Many rabbonim allowed Zoom siyum participation in order for first-born's to eat on Erev Pesach.

Bump? Platinumguy

Missed it, will try to look soon although I'm in quarantine with limited sefarim. It's somewhere in Tur/Shulchan Aruch not a random kula.

[mmgfarb]

The definition of אותה סעודה. Where do you draw line? What if the Baal Hasiyum does not eat, but others do? What if he leaves before they start eating? Do you need everybody to eat the same dish? What if you send food from the siyum to somebody outside (shabbos [and Rosh Chodesh] leftovers are mutter)? One can argue any meal that is intended to celebrate the siyum would be considered a סעודת סיום.

ETA: Here is some discussion amongst the Poskim if one needs to hear the siyum itself. R Elyashiv apparently held that although normally one would need to hear the siyum, if he participated in preparing for it he is considered part of the Seuda even without hearing it.

Now imagine somebody who made a siyum hashas that he learnt over 15 years and his wife can only participate by Skype for whatever reason, but she sits down to celebrate and eats the same food that she prepared herself for the meal. Would you not agree there is room to say she is also eating a seudas mitzvah even while being physically separate?

 https://www.dirshu.co.il/סיום-בתשעת-הימים/

So focus on the specific aspect of whether or not you have to actually hear the siyum and ignore all the other aspects of why it seems problematic, sure.

[mmgfarb]

Many rabbonim allowed Zoom siyum participation in order for first-born's to eat on Erev Pesach.

Do you think siyum erev pesach is at all comparable to the 9 days? Besides the fact that it was not so pashut that Zoom worked Erev Pesach and most held to only do it in a major b'shas hadchak (which, granted, many people were in.)

[PlatinumGuy]

I don't think in my entire life I ever ate meat at a 9 days siyum, nor do I plan on doing so this year although it appears I'll probably finish a Masecheta that I learned beiyun over a long period, however there are two sides to everything. Perhaps the reason eating a 9 days siyum appears like a 'trick' to us is because we aren't appreciating the simcha of a Siyum enough. Imagine if somebody won $100m? Everybody in his vicinity would automatically smile and share in the euphoria. He would have an urge to share the happiness with his family & friends, who would naturally feel happy for him. Look how governments around the world acknowledged the necessity of family members to participate in wedding's and Brissim. אעלה את ירושלים על ראש שמחתי means that one cannot celebrate fully without Yerushalyim just as it's impossible to celebrate fully without one's family.

טוב לי תורת פיך מאלפי זהב וכסף, if we would appreciate the value of a single Halacha, Chakira, or question as worth far more than $100m, even the most perfunctory, superficial siyum would appear to be valuable enough to merit boundless celebration.

Source for shabbos leftovers?

בשערי תשובה תקנא,יא הביא בשם הברכי יוסף שיש מקילים לאכול בשר מבושל שנשתייר משבת, וכתב שבמדינתנו לא שמענו מי שמקל בזה והמיקל בכלל פורץ גדר, ור' עוד בבני יששכר (חודש תמוז אב מאמר א' אות י') שכתב שאם לא יהיה רשאי לאכול השיריים אחרי שבת יתקלקלו השיריים וימנע ולא יקנה לשבת רק בדוחק וצמצום ויהיה מניעה מעונג שבת), אך הסיק שכתב זה להלכה ולא למעשה וכך המנהג.

(I was bringing it to prove the concept, not to say you're allowed to eat)

Do you think siyum erev pesach is at all comparable to the 9 days?

Explain to me why you think they're different? If anything, the chiyuv to fast on Erev Pesach is a Mishna and not eating meat on the 9 days is a big machlokes in the first place. Either way, both definitely require participation in the siyum to some extent or another, and apparently Zoom is plausibly sufficient to reach that threshold.

[mmgfarb]

I don't think in my entire life I ever ate meat at a 9 days siyum, nor do I plan on doing so this year although it appears I'll probably finish a Masecheta that I learned beiyun over a long period, however there are two sides to everything. Perhaps the reason eating a 9 days siyum appears like a 'trick' to us is because we aren't appreciating the simcha of a Siyum enough. Imagine if somebody won $100m? Everybody in his vicinity would automatically smile and share in the euphoria. He would have an urge to share the happiness with his family & friends, who would naturally feel happy for him. Look how governments around the world acknowledged the necessity of family members to participate in wedding's and Brissim. אעלה את ירושלים על ראש שמחתי means that one cannot celebrate fully without Yerushalyim just as it's impossible to celebrate fully without one's family.

טוב לי תורת פיך מאלפי זהב וכסף, if we would appreciate the value of a single Halacha, Chakira, or question as worth far more than $100m, even the most perfunctory, superficial siyum would appear to be valuable enough to merit boundless celebration.

All very nice and good in theory but halacha doesn't work like that, there are pretty clear gedarim.

[PlatinumGuy]

All very nice and good in theory but halacha doesn't work like that, there are pretty clear gedarim.

So far I’ve backed up every statement of mine. You haven’t backed up a single one.
השליך אמת ארצה, halacha is very often is defined by human interpretation. If one thing is certain it’s that the gedarim here are not 100% clear. You really think there are ‘clear gedarim’ yet they are different in respect to the 9 days and Erev Pesach? Get over yourself & admit that the opposing opinion may be legitimate

[ExGingi]

Minhag Chabad is to refrain from meat even with a siyum.

There are also siyumim going on until 15th of Av IINM.

[AussieMan]

Minhag Chabad is to refrain from meat even with a siyum.

Source?
I've heard it plenty but never seen it anywhere.
And afaik it's been confused from
We make a siyum even if we don't plan to eat meat
To
We don't eat meat even with a siyum.

[Dan]

Source?
I've heard it plenty but never seen it anywhere.
And afaik it's been confused from
We make a siyum even if we don't plan to eat meat
To
We don't eat meat even with a siyum.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3734643/jewish/Why-Make-a-Siyum-During-the-Nine-Days.htm

[AussieMan]

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3734643/jewish/Why-Make-a-Siyum-During-the-Nine-Days.htm

The article seems to make my point, that we make a siyum even when it doesn't serve the purpose of eating meat.

Not seeing much about actively refraining from meat, aside from the sefer haminhagim quote, which is not quite the same as Chabad custom is to refrain from meat even with a siyum.

[YitzyS]

https://twitter.com/yidwithsign/status/1286076011491270657

[Dan]

The article seems to make my point, that we make a siyum even when it doesn't serve the purpose of eating meat.

Not seeing much about actively refraining from meat, aside from the sefer haminhagim quote, which is not quite the same as Chabad custom is to refrain from meat even with a siyum.

"However, there are many who follow the practice of the students of the Baal Shem Tov, and are particular to participate in a siyum during the Nine Days, but have the custom not to eat meat afterward. "

"Furthermore, there are those (notably the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Sholom Dovber of Lubavitch10) who have the custom not to eat meat at siyumim made during the 9 Days, but nevertheless specifically make or participate in a siyum at this time."

And I was told by Rabbi SB Chaikin not to eat meat at a siyum.
Who told you otherwise is the better question?