Author Topic: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA  (Read 14490 times)

Offline JTZ

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2016, 01:44:17 AM »
1. So those that sit aren't necessarily disrespecting the dead, correct? I can assume that they respect them in other ways. 
2. I don't see how the wars have anything to do with politics. Thousands of veterans died because of the mistakes of their government, I don't see that as a right/left issue. It's very nice to call them heroes but is it blasphemy to believe that they died in vain?

At the very least you can see now that there's another side to things let's not make a big deal over sitting down during an anthem.
I should make a correction first. We are not only talking about those that died serving this country but all those that serve this country.

If we go to war or not has a lot to do with politics. The soldiers don't get a choice in those matters and are just serving their country no matter if you think the decision to go to war was right or wrong. Sitting during the anthem IMHO is disrespecting all of them even if you feel you can respect them in other ways.

During the Vietnam (major politics involved) war the flag was burned, returning soldiers were spat upon and called baby killers. Would you consider any of those behaviors disrespectful?
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2016, 02:06:26 AM »
Anyone that's traveled extensively knows what an amazing nation this is.

Doesn't mean that there are no issues. As I wrote, in the times of slavery we were also the greatest.

Quote
There are better ways to protest than when we honor those who gave their lives for our freedom.

As I said before, the national anthem isn't a song about honoring troops besides for when it's used in that context.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2016, 02:27:01 AM »
I should make a correction first. We are not only talking about those that died serving this country but all those that serve this country.

Of course

Quote
If we go to war or not has a lot to do with politics. The soldiers don't get a choice in those matters and are just serving their country no matter if you think the decision to go to war was right or wrong. Sitting during the anthem IMHO is disrespecting all of them even if you feel you can respect them in other ways.

They fought for their country that made a big mistake. Countries make mistakes. We have to admit that to learn from those mistakes. It's unfortunate that soldiers die and get injured for no reason, you're trying too hard to put meaning to meaningless deaths. The soldiers deserve recognition for being willing to give everything to their country despite the results. Lets not rewrite history and claim every soldier saved America.

And again, the national anthem is the national anthem, not a specific salute to the troops.

Quote
During the Vietnam (major politics involved) war the flag was burned, returning soldiers were spat upon and called baby killers. Would you consider any of those behaviors disrespectful?

Flag burning - I wouldn't do but I'd be okay with in that context. How many people including US soldiers were killed because of a useless war because we wanted to show the world who's boss? When the government doesn't care about its soldiers, its people, why should the people care about the governments symbols?

Spitting on soldiers, calling them names - definite no-no, doesn't even need to be asked.
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Offline JTZ

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2016, 09:10:00 AM »
They fought for their country that made a big mistake. Countries make mistakes. We have to admit that to learn from those mistakes. It's unfortunate that soldiers die and get injured for no reason, you're trying too hard to put meaning to meaningless deaths. The soldiers deserve recognition for being willing to give everything to their country despite the results. Lets not rewrite history and claim every soldier saved America.
So how do you decide which deaths have meaning and which ones did not? How do you decide which ones saved America and which ones didn't? Is it based on winning a war? Is it based on if you think the war is just or not? They don't get to make those choices.

No matter the outcome of the war or the politics involved in sending them to war they all have the same meaning.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2016, 11:22:09 AM »
So how do you decide which deaths have meaning and which ones did not? How do you decide which ones saved America and which ones didn't? Is it based on winning a war? Is it based on if you think the war is just or not? They don't get to make those choices.

No matter the outcome of the war or the politics involved in sending them to war they all have the same meaning.

Nothing to do with winners and losers (although it must be noted that history is (re)written by the victors). It has to do with just or not. Not all wars are created equally.
I'll admit that not every war can be determined in hindsight whether it was just or not.
But some can be determined.

If we're trying to be honest, if you were from Japan, I don't think you would commemorate soldiers that fought along with the Nazis. Just because you're a soldier "doing your job" which entails risking your life for your country, does not mean that you deserve honor for fighting on the side that is clearly in the wrong.

To put it succintly- people die without purpose or meaning all the time. Sometimes those people are soldiers.
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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2016, 12:37:49 PM »
So many thungs wrong with what you wrote.
So one by one.

1. The national anthem isn't an anthem to respect the dead. It is used when respecting the dead, but when they DON'T say "let's sing this anthem in honor of our troops/vets", it has nothing to do with them but rather America and everything it represents. Yes that includes the troops, but that also includes all the bad things along with it. Obviously if the anthem is recited in memory he is disrespecting those that sacrificed for him. Though it doesn't help that the NFL and other sports leagues are literally paid millions to respect the troops, if you ask me that's worse than sitting down during a random non-troop supporting anthem.

2. America has had a problem with police brutality and has done nothing to reel it in. The brutality stems from policies in place that promote cops to use bullets first and policies that say the cop is never guilty no matter how wrong he is. Cops rarely ever get convicted and that's policy. You want to say this flag represents America, you can't change the facts, America is comprised of xyz mostly good things but also bad things.

3. You're obviously a firm believer in american exceptionalis as you believe an athlete like him wouldn't get paid millions to play sports in other countries. Yep only in America. FYI soccer players worldwide aren't picking tobbaco, they are some of the highest paid athletes in the world.

4. Criticizing a countries policies isn't akin to disrespect. We live in a democracy where the beauty of it is that citizens desires can actually be passed into law. Protesting a policy is part of the democratic process, and might be more patriotic than anything you've ever done.
1. You are right that this is not because of it honoring those killed. It is because it is an insult to the whole country. That may be worse than if it were for soldiers.

2. I disagree wholeheartedly with your entire statement that there is a systemic police brutality problem and even more so with your statement that nothing has been done. America has been at the forefront in preventing police overkill. Does that mean it never happens? of course not. I challenge you to bring policies showing that police should use bullets first. Police rarely get convicted, but that is mostly because they are in a position where it is easy to make a self defense case. What policies do you propose to implement? Even if there is a systemic issue that is not a reason anyhow.

3. Straw man alert. This has zero to do with whether other countries have similar freedoms-and possibly better ones than America. You want to debate that go ahead but it has nothing to do with this conversation or anything I wrote here.

4. THere is a big difference between criticizing a policy and  burning a flag over it. His sitting was meant as a statement similar to burning a flag. It was meant to say that he is protesting over something which delegitimizes the country. When Iran burns an Israeli flag that is the statement they are making. If he feels there is concern here he can protest in other ways like the players who walked onto the field with their hands up (hands up don't shoot). What kinds of policies should one consider to delegitimaze the country? High/low taxes? Obamacare?  He intended to insult the country and was succesful at it. Now those insulted are acting insulted.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2016, 01:03:57 PM »
1. You are right that this is not because of it honoring those killed. It is because it is an insult to the whole country. That may be worse than if it were for soldiers.

2. I disagree wholeheartedly with your entire statement that there is a systemic police brutality problem and even more so with your statement that nothing has been done. America has been at the forefront in preventing police overkill. Does that mean it never happens? of course not. I challenge you to bring policies showing that police should use bullets first. Police rarely get convicted, but that is mostly because they are in a position where it is easy to make a self defense case. What policies do you propose to implement? Even if there is a systemic issue that is not a reason anyhow.

3. Straw man alert. This has zero to do with whether other countries have similar freedoms-and possibly better ones than America. You want to debate that go ahead but it has nothing to do with this conversation or anything I wrote here.

4. THere is a big difference between criticizing a policy and  burning a flag over it. His sitting was meant as a statement similar to burning a flag. It was meant to say that he is protesting over something which delegitimizes the country. When Iran burns an Israeli flag that is the statement they are making. If he feels there is concern here he can protest in other ways like the players who walked onto the field with their hands up (hands up don't shoot). What kinds of policies should one consider to delegitimaze the country? High/low taxes? Obamacare?  He intended to insult the country and was succesful at it. Now those insulted are acting insulted.

1. Feel free to get offended at someone's use of free speech to bring up an issue he believes in, it absolutely doesn't bother me. If you need some tissues, I found a good deal.

2. Truly laughable. I posted an article before with clear proof of systemic police killings. Either admit you didn't read it or debate the facts. There are countless stories where the cop goes free simply for saying they didn't know they were breaking the law.

3. Not a straw man at all. You said that America allows him to make millions of dollars tossing a football as opposed to picking tobacco. Which directly implies that the opportunity to make millions as an athlete is exclusive to America, if he doesn't like it he can go back to picking tobacco. No, he has the option to make millions as an athlete anywhere in the world. Yelling "straw man!" doesn't help you here.

4. So now sitting during an anthem is equal to burning a flag.
Holy frickin' cow.
Not worth responding to as we're not on the same page.
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Offline JTZ

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2016, 01:10:10 PM »
4. So now sitting during an anthem is equal to burning a flag.
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2016, 01:16:11 PM »
Keep in mind that the police brutality numbers don't include the harassment that don't end in fatality.  Thankfully technology has given us the ability to see what others experience all too often. 

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2016, 01:16:46 PM »
1. Feel free to get offended at someone's use of free speech to bring up an issue he believes in, it absolutely doesn't bother me. If you need some tissues, I found a good deal.

2. Truly laughable. I posted an article before with clear proof of systemic police killings. Either admit you didn't read it or debate the facts. There are countless stories where the cop goes free simply for saying they didn't know they were breaking the law.

3. Not a straw man at all. You said that America allows him to make millions of dollars tossing a football as opposed to picking tobacco. Which directly implies that the opportunity to make millions as an athlete is exclusive to America, if he doesn't like it he can go back to picking tobacco. No, he has the option to make millions as an athlete anywhere in the world. Yelling "straw man!" doesn't help you here.

4. So now sitting during an anthem is equal to burning a flag.
Holy frickin' cow.
Not worth responding to as we're not on the same page.
1. Trust me I won't lose sleep over it but those who are upset are not wrong

2. There is certainly room for improvement. That is a big step from delegitamizing a country.

3. That America slides it does not in any way imply that it is exclusive in that regard. Should one not appreciate something just because others do the same maybe even better?

4. Similar/= equal. The similarity between them is the intent of the protest. Obviously one takes it much further than the other.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2016, 01:17:59 PM »
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.
from of speech is irrelevant. There is no call for him to be criminally punished. We are simply seeing other excessive their free speech against him.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2016, 01:24:13 PM »
Yes. What is difference if he chose one over the other to get his point across? They are both protected by the 1st amendment.

Maybe not.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/fernandoalfonso/2016/07/04/illinois-man-charged-with-desecrating-american-flag-after-posting-photos-on-facebook/#3a72aa1e598f


Offline MosheD

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2016, 01:25:25 PM »
Hmmm.
I one time sat for the national anthem (my feet were tired) and noone made a big deal...

Offline JTZ

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2016, 01:32:07 PM »
Maybe not.
SCOTUS took the maybe out of it a long time ago.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2016, 01:38:25 PM »
1. Trust me I won't lose sleep over it but those who are upset are not wrong

2. There is certainly room for improvement. That is a big step from delegitamizing a country.

3. That America slides it does not in any way imply that it is exclusive in that regard. Should one not appreciate something just because others do the same maybe even better?

4. Similar/= equal. The similarity between them is the intent of the protest. Obviously one takes it much further than the other.

1. IMHO there is no right and wrong on this issue, people feel whatever way they want, that's their right.

2. Who said that admitting their are issues like police brutality delegitimizes the country? The country has many issues, one of them police brutality, and he wants to highlight it so we can improve.

3. Who said he doesn't appreciate what the US did for him? Just because he is happy with his life means he cannot have a voice? He is not allowed to speak for others that he feels are victimized? It's really easy to be happy with status quo when you are on top of the world.

4. The fact that you think they are similar is enough for me to realize that we are not on the same page.
I only enjoy debating when the sides aren't so far apart and filled with exaggerations.
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