Author Topic: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA  (Read 27905 times)

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7414
  • Total likes: 1763
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #140 on: September 01, 2016, 02:10:17 PM »
He's getting a lot of support from veterans. Many believe that his protest is exactly the freedom that they fought for...

I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

Offline puppydogs

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2011
  • Posts: 20
  • Total likes: 0
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #141 on: September 01, 2016, 02:14:45 PM »
I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

I don't think its ever OK to disrespect the flag. From where I come from that's a major no-no.

Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #142 on: September 01, 2016, 02:18:42 PM »
Really? Where did you learn that? Someone took a poll? Or a few well-placed op-eds gave you that impression?

There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah


Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #143 on: September 01, 2016, 02:19:13 PM »
I don't think its ever OK to disrespect the flag. From where I come from that's a major no-no.

Do you come from China?

Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #144 on: September 01, 2016, 02:20:08 PM »
I don't think it's right for him to do on it military appreciation night unless he's protesting the military.
The other times I considered it fine.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3110
  • Total likes: 279
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #145 on: September 01, 2016, 02:26:50 PM »
There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah

As I said, it makes an impression. In reality, it has little meaning. What percentage of veterans is this? 10%? 90% .01%? Even if it were .001% you could muster enough tweets to be too many for me to read in one sitting.

And this is exactly the same issue with the cause that CK is supporting. It's based on impressions and feelings. Kind of like the reverse of JTZ's impression that since he doesn't personally know anybody who left a kid in a car then it can't happen to normal people. Here, it's the reverse. It's happening EVERYWHERE! I saw it on Twitter!

Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2016, 02:29:40 PM »
As I said, it makes an impression. In reality, it has little meaning. What percentage of veterans is this? 10%? 90% .01%? Even if it were .001% you could muster enough tweets to be too many for me to read in one sitting.

And this is exactly the same issue with the cause that CK is supporting. It's based on impressions and feelings. Kind of like the reverse of JTZ's impression that since he doesn't personally know anybody who left a kid in a car then it can't happen to normal people. Here, it's the reverse. It's happening EVERYWHERE! I saw it on Twitter!

It's a representative sample.  From these tweets you can extrapolate to others, just as you can with tweets opposing his protest.  It's safe to say that he's getting support from veterans and opposition from veterans.  In other words, it's a complicated issue with no right side and no wrong side. 

Online yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 7414
  • Total likes: 1763
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #147 on: September 01, 2016, 02:30:07 PM »
Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...

I agree. That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.
You don't go to a library to protest against McDonald's.

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3110
  • Total likes: 279
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2016, 02:32:40 PM »
It's a representative sample.  From these tweets you can extrapolate to others, just as you can with tweets opposing his protest.  It's safe to say that he's getting support from veterans and opposition from veterans.  In other words, it's a complicated issue with no right side and no wrong side.
And you just summed up the moral position that you consistently espouse on this forum.
I'm sure you're a great guy in real life but for some reason you decided that you need to be the voice of moral relativism on this forum.

Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #149 on: September 01, 2016, 02:55:11 PM »
And you just summed up the moral position that you consistently espouse on this forum.
I'm sure you're a great guy in real life but for some reason you decided that you need to be the voice of moral relativism on this forum.

Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3110
  • Total likes: 279
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #150 on: September 01, 2016, 03:04:26 PM »
Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?

Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12677
  • Total likes: 7361
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #151 on: September 01, 2016, 03:39:30 PM »
There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah



First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...
and this is correct.
That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.

I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #152 on: September 01, 2016, 06:09:53 PM »
Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

Offline ShlockDoc

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 2337
  • Total likes: 53
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 34
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #153 on: September 01, 2016, 06:15:28 PM »
First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.
 and this is correct.
I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one


Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 06:23:52 PM by ShlockDoc »

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3110
  • Total likes: 279
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #154 on: September 01, 2016, 06:19:31 PM »
Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.
Not trying to make this personal. I don't know you. I'm not judging your character. I'm saying that all your JS posts follow a certain consistent ideology. That's why I feel like it's you who aren't talking about the issue. You're just reiterating your same old position from another platform.

I apologize if I'm not being nice or fair. I'm not trying to offend you.

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 228
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Menachem613

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2012
  • Posts: 1059
  • Total likes: 51
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NYC
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #156 on: September 01, 2016, 06:48:22 PM »
Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

+1

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 60303
  • Total likes: 7558
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16442
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 12677
  • Total likes: 7361
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #158 on: September 01, 2016, 07:11:19 PM »
Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.
Those same vets who are offended also agree that his and everyone else's right is what they fought to defend. What does that have to do with whether or not he is a piece of garbage for doing it? I also agree he has the right to be a piece of garbage.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Freddie

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2013
  • Posts: 3110
  • Total likes: 279
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Pittsburgh
Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #159 on: September 01, 2016, 07:29:21 PM »
+1

I don't think that's what "personal" means.

Personal means using details about someone's private life to make them look bad instead of arguing the issue. What I am doing is pointing out how one person expresses a consistent ideology represented across many conversations. If someone predictably pushes the same agenda on every issue, is it a personal attack to point that out? I'm not talking about HIM. I'm talking about his OPINIONS. We're allowed to argue against OPINIONS without being accused of besmirching PEOPLE.

Just my humble opinion. You may think I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.