Author Topic: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA  (Read 17114 times)

Offline Freddie

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #150 on: September 01, 2016, 03:04:26 PM »
Some issues are not black and white and both sides have valid points.  Is that not a concept you agree with?

Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

Offline aygart

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #151 on: September 01, 2016, 03:39:30 PM »
There are some op-eds about it that quote individual veterans, but also look at the grassroots on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=veterans%20for%20kaepernick&src=tyah



First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.

Everyone's entitle to their opinion, but they're all arbitrary. That's why it's a great country that we can express them, and protest how we see fit...
and this is correct.
That means it's legal to protest, but it doesn't mean it's right.

I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #152 on: September 01, 2016, 06:09:53 PM »
Like I said, I really bet you are a great guy in real life, but your on-line persona on this forum is Mr. Moral Equivalence.
Is there such a thing as "grey? Yes, but you make a shitta of it.

I hate using tired old phrases, especially about political ideology, but this is modern liberalism in a nutshell.

In Kabalistic parlance, it's called "sod eitz hadaas tairuvas tov v'ra." Our job is not to revel in the ambiguity. Our job is to use Torah to sift clarity out of ambiguity.

Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #153 on: September 01, 2016, 06:15:28 PM »
First of all that entire link is of people quoting articles about the twitter hashtag and barely any of actual vets. Quite meaningless.

Even the linked articles only quote support for his right to protest about which there was no argument at all. He certainly has the right to make any inappropriate protest he wishes subject to reasonable regulation as has been decided in numerous court cases. Those same protections apply to those who feel it is inappropriate for them to protest his protest or how it was done. Hence this argument is TOTALLY irrelevant.
 and this is correct.
I haven't even seen vets actually saying what he did was good other than some like this one


Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 06:23:52 PM by ShlockDoc »

Offline Freddie

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #154 on: September 01, 2016, 06:19:31 PM »
Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.
Not trying to make this personal. I don't know you. I'm not judging your character. I'm saying that all your JS posts follow a certain consistent ideology. That's why I feel like it's you who aren't talking about the issue. You're just reiterating your same old position from another platform.

I apologize if I'm not being nice or fair. I'm not trying to offend you.

Offline JTZ

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"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #156 on: September 01, 2016, 06:48:22 PM »
Why make this personal?  Let's focus on the issue.

+1

Offline Dan

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Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #158 on: September 01, 2016, 07:11:19 PM »
Dig through the tweets with that hashtag for the last 2 days. There are dozens of vets tweeting their support. 

And that's my point. You're correct that nobody is arguing about the right. My point is that whether it's an act that is insulting to the veterans isn't black and white. Many veterans are saying that this is what they fought for.  And intend to agree with that. The kishke reaction is that he's being insulting.  But if you think about it, what makes us free is not popular speech. Unpopular, offensive speech is exactly the freedom that they've defended.

There is also no lack of veterans who disagree and are offended. I respect them as well and think Kasperwhateverhisnameis should find some way to reach out to them and do a better job explaining what he's doing and why.
Those same vets who are offended also agree that his and everyone else's right is what they fought to defend. What does that have to do with whether or not he is a piece of garbage for doing it? I also agree he has the right to be a piece of garbage.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Freddie

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #159 on: September 01, 2016, 07:29:21 PM »
+1

I don't think that's what "personal" means.

Personal means using details about someone's private life to make them look bad instead of arguing the issue. What I am doing is pointing out how one person expresses a consistent ideology represented across many conversations. If someone predictably pushes the same agenda on every issue, is it a personal attack to point that out? I'm not talking about HIM. I'm talking about his OPINIONS. We're allowed to argue against OPINIONS without being accused of besmirching PEOPLE.

Just my humble opinion. You may think I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #160 on: September 01, 2016, 07:53:11 PM »
I don't think that's what "personal" means.

Personal means using details about someone's private life to make them look bad instead of arguing the issue. What I am doing is pointing out how one person expresses a consistent ideology represented across many conversations. If someone predictably pushes the same agenda on every issue, is it a personal attack to point that out? I'm not talking about HIM. I'm talking about his OPINIONS. We're allowed to argue against OPINIONS without being accused of besmirching PEOPLE.

Just my humble opinion. You may think I'm wrong. I won't take it personally.
Saying "I'm sure you're a great guy in person [as apposed to your online persona, which is not great]" is making it personal. You could have argued your point without bringing that up, twice.
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Offline yuneeq

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #161 on: September 01, 2016, 10:04:15 PM »
The one good thing that came out of all this is that Americans are starting to remember that we have rights.
Many people weren't so sure at first.
Live forever or die trying.

Offline rileywiles23

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #162 on: September 01, 2016, 10:43:37 PM »
Was a bit ironic watching kaep signing autographs during the game, with a whole bunch of officers behind him watching his back.
Life is as good as you make it...

Offline aygart

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #163 on: September 01, 2016, 11:32:38 PM »
The one good thing that came out of all this is that Americans are starting to remember that we have rights.
Many people weren't so sure at first.
all the liberals get a reminder of free speech each time someone does something offensive to promote a liberal cause.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: Colin Kaepernick protest against USA
« Reply #164 on: September 01, 2016, 11:49:39 PM »
all the liberals get a reminder of free speech each time someone does something offensive to promote a liberal cause.

The conservatives sound like liberals in this case. He can do what he wants but he shouldn't because they get offended or because it hurts the feelings of vets or makes the flag sad.  Sounds like a reversal of roles in this case.