Store Won't Take Returns From Lakewood, Brooklyn, Monsey, Monroe or Passaic

[aygart]

some posters here sound pretty mean and unfair. some moser (i hate using that term) went to the DA because they had nothing better to do in their lives but attack a small business (im sure that same guy believes that he shouldnt have to sell a cake for a homosexual marriage, but does not concern himself with his internal contradictions).
they gave their info to the NJ DA, wasting days of their lives sorting into nice excel files all the info showing the huge disparity in returns as the reason for the difference in treatment. they never wanted to make a chillul hashem, the jerks who posted and made it big and went to the DA etc were the ones who caused a chillul hashem. and the DA had no logical argument just a claim of disparate treatment without any insight that a court would hopefully strike down due to the clear basis for the different treatment. but the da has resources and they didnt want to pay more for lawyers, so now everyone suffers because now there are no cash returns anywhere.

Similar to an insurance company charging more to insure your car in Inner City neighborhoods.

[yuneeq]

Similar to an insurance company charging more to insure your car in Inner City neighborhoods.

-1
If an insurance company charged $100/month to the entire US besides a few neighborhoods, then that would be comparable example.

[Boruch999]

-1
If an insurance company charged $100/month to the entire US besides a few neighborhoods, then that would be comparable example.

I don't understand your issue with the comparison. Can you elaborate?

[yuneeq]

I don't understand your issue with the comparison. Can you elaborate?

One is redlining and one is not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

[Boruch999]

One is redlining and one is not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

This was not redlining if we are to believe the claims of the business owner.  The policy was not because of the racial or ethnic composition of those areas but because of the high risk of return abuse from those areas.  Let's for arguments sake assume that most residents of large inner cities in the US are black and Hispanic. This is certainly true in some cities.  Insurance premiums are higher there not because of the ethnicity of the residents but because of the higher rate of claims from those areas.

[yuneeq]

This was not redlining if we are to believe the claims of the business owner.  The policy was not because of the racial or ethnic composition of those areas but because of the high risk of return abuse from those areas.  Let's for arguments sake assume that most residents of large inner cities in the US are black and Hispanic. This is certainly true in some cities.  Insurance premiums are higher there not because of the ethnicity of the residents but because of the higher rate of claims from those areas.

It doesn't matter what she claims, because at the end of the day the policy was targeting highly populous Jewish towns. Just like banks that would avoid giving loans in high risk black neighborhoods - because they would on average perform poorly - and that was illegal.

Insurance isn't one price fits all. Every person, neighborhood, car, age, drivers experience, etc., gets priced differently based on statistical risk factors that have nothing to do with race or religion.

The website was one-price-fits-all. Unless you lived in certain Jewish towns.

There are laws in this country, and compliance with the law is part of the cost of doing business.

[Boruch999]

It doesn't matter what she claims, because at the end of the day the policy was targeting highly populous Jewish towns. Just like banks that would avoid giving loans in high risk black neighborhoods - because they would on average perform poorly - and that was illegal.

Insurance isn't one price fits all. Every person, neighborhood, car, age, drivers experience, etc., gets priced differently based on statistical risk factors that have nothing to do with race or religion.

The website was one-price-fits-all. Unless you lived in certain Jewish towns.

There are laws in this country, and compliance with the law is part of the cost of doing business.

Who decides which products and services can be tailored in a way that limits risk to the provider and which ones have to be one-size-fits-all?

Can a website charge more for shipping out of state?

As pointed out above,  it's not clear that this was a violation of the law.

[yuneeq]

Who decides which products and services can be tailored in a way that limits risk to the provider and which ones have to be one-size-fits-all?

The government outlawed racial discrimination.
Insurance is highly regulated so still a bad example but in general a company can charge whatever they want as long as pricing is not highly correlated with race.

Can a website charge more for shipping out of state?

Foolish question of the day. Are you charging based on shipping costs?
Do you offer free shipping to the entire US besides a few black neighborhoods? Do you charge $10 shipping to a black neighborhood in NJ and $5 to other neighborhoods in NJ despite the shipping prices costing the same? I'm sure you can answer all these questions properly if you give it a little bit of thought.

As pointed out above,  it's not clear that this was a violation of the law.

It sounds like discrimination, and the AG (it is their job after all) thinks the same. At best, it is a gray area.
If the store disagrees then they can fight for it.

[Cheesecake]

Foolish question of the day. Are you charging based on shipping costs?
Do you offer free shipping to the entire US besides a few black neighborhoods? Do you charge $10 shipping to a black neighborhood in NJ and $5 to other neighborhoods in NJ despite the shipping prices costing the same?

But what if shipping did cost more to black neighborhoods? That would be the better analogy (according to her numbers).

[yuneeq]

But what if shipping did cost more to black neighborhoods? That would be the better analogy (according to her numbers).

That answer is: it never will.
Shipping pricing is set by zone which encompasses huge amounts of neighborhoods.
If shipping to black neighborhoods is indeed more expensive then the store would be off the hook but the shipping company does in fact deserve  to be investigated.

[thaber]

That answer is: it never will.
Shipping pricing is set by zone which encompasses huge amounts of neighborhoods.
If shipping to black neighborhoods is indeed more expensive then the store would be off the hook but the shipping company does in fact deserve  to be investigated.

For example.  Google express delivers only to decent areas locally where I am. 

[Boruch999]

That answer is: it never will.
Shipping pricing is set by zone which encompasses huge amounts of neighborhoods.
If shipping to black neighborhoods is indeed more expensive then the store would be off the hook but the shipping company does in fact deserve  to be investigated.

suppose gangs in some neighborhoods extorted protection money from the delivery company.  Bottom line is, if costs in a certain area are higher, the service provider is justified in charging a higher price.

[yuneeq]

For example.  Google express delivers only to decent areas locally where I am.

Also the pizza store in Beijing doesn't deliver to Lakewood

[yuneeq]

suppose gangs in some neighborhoods extorted protection money from the delivery company.  Bottom line is, if costs in a certain area are higher, the service provider is justified in charging a higher price.

It is illegal to racially discriminate by redlining a geographical area.
If you find a company that's doing that, then go ahead and report it. I'm not going  to argue whether or not a hypothetical delivery company can hypothetically racially discriminate if they want to.

Should a company be able to claim that I cost them more money in returns because I live in a certain neighborhood, despite the fact that I rarely ever return anything I purchase? See, we're dealing with individuals returning products, not neighborhoods. By discriminating against the entire neighborhood, you're saying that all these individuals are costing you more money. Which is not true. Some people cost more money and some cost less money. As a whole they might combine to a higher cost but that doesn't give the company a right to discriminate against individuals in that area. That's what the redlining law is about. Just like how poor blacks were less likely to be good borrowers, but even middle class blacks were getting discriminated against because a banks redlining policy decided that they are risky due to their neighborhood.

[JTZ]

The government outlawed racial discrimination.
Insurance is highly regulated so still a bad example but in general a company can charge whatever they want as long as pricing is not highly correlated with race.

So if the zipcode contained five different races in equal proportion that would be OK?

[yuneeq]

So if the zipcode contained five different races in equal proportion that would be OK?

I would think so

[JTZ]

I would think so

So when the majority of the zipcode is made up by one race that makes it illegal? It is automatic?

[yuneeq]

So when the majority of the zipcode is made up by one race that makes it illegal? It is automatic?

Nothing is automatic. First of all, if a company is overtly racist it doesn't matter what the demographic is, they're gonna get hit hard. The laws against redlining weren't designed to stop this. Redlining laws were meant to stop covert, systematical racism. Where companies create a system to serve as a proxy for their racism. I doubt that a company would systematically treat 1 diverse zip code worse than any other zip codes due to racism, when you have zip codes that include a majority of the race they supposedly are discriminating against (and they treat them fairly). At the end of the day if a company isn't doing anything suspicious it wouldn't be investigated.

[JTZ]

Do you believe this person did this based on race? If these zipcodes are where she claims her biggest losses came from had majority Asian people she would not have done the same thing?

What I am getting at is this. I have an internet business and notice most of my returns are coming from certain zipcodes.  I put restrictions on those zipcodes. That is illegal based on race when I am not even aware of the makeup of the zipcodes.

[aygart]

Do you believe this person did this based on race? If these zipcodes are where she claims her biggest losses came from had majority Asian people she would not have done the same thing?

What I am getting at is this. I have an internet business and notice most of my returns are coming from certain zipcodes.  I put restrictions on those zipcodes. That is illegal based on race when I am not even aware of the makeup of the zipcodes.

I do think it fed into her pre-existing stereotype as it did for many right here on this forum.