Author Topic: Public letter  (Read 46412 times)

Offline henche

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2016, 08:53:15 AM »
I saw a sign in a pizza shop that said "we don't serve pizza, we serve people"

I dont eat there anymore

Offline avadah

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2016, 09:06:21 AM »
I saw a sign in a pizza shop that said "we don't serve pizza, we serve people"

I dont eat there anymore
You should. The people are delicious .

Offline Sport

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2016, 09:57:46 AM »
Wha?

What does it mean at all? We teach children to Torah?

To me, it means we don't care as much about faithful transmission of the Torah as much as how the children feel.

I'm sure he would deny that this was his intention, but that's where the emotional pull comes from.
I understood it to mean "chanoch l'nar al pi darcho". If we have the perspective that we are  teaching children then they become the priority and we will do whatever is neccesary to ensure the children are learning.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2016, 09:59:06 AM »
I understood it to mean "chanoch l'nar al pi darcho". If we have the perspective that we are  teaching children then they become the priority and we will do whatever is neccesary to ensure the children are learning.
"Whatever is necessary" might not always be appropriate.

Offline Sport

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2016, 10:01:21 AM »
"Whatever is necessary" might not always be appropriate.
I wasnt writting a thesis.
"In the proper context" happy now ?

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #125 on: October 07, 2016, 10:02:49 AM »
I wasnt writting a thesis.
"In the proper context" happy now ?
I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you what those words mean to me, particularly in the context they were written.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #126 on: October 07, 2016, 10:18:27 AM »
I think the intention was to imply that the goal is not to get up on a pedestal and preach torah, but rather to transmit torah faithfully to the students in a way they can process properly. Which is a well-supported concept.

Then he uses that starting point to support other ideas.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #127 on: October 07, 2016, 10:30:38 AM »


I think the intention was to imply that the goal is not to get up on a pedestal and preach torah, but rather to transmit torah faithfully to the students in a way they can process properly. Which is a well-supported concept.

Then he uses that starting point to support other ideas.

Those other ideas include transmitting Torah unfaithfully.

Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #128 on: October 07, 2016, 10:42:38 AM »
I agree with you.

Offline ADG

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #129 on: October 07, 2016, 12:14:36 PM »

Those other ideas include transmitting Torah unfaithfully.

Please show us where torah requires prerequisites to learning torah? ... or whtever the heck this means "transmitting Torah unfaithfully."

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #130 on: October 07, 2016, 12:18:49 PM »
Please show us where torah requires prerequisites to learning torah?
I could, but that's not the point. He wants the yeshivos to accept behavior which is against halachah. That is hypocritical. If you don't practice what you preach, the lessons are ineffective and worthless.

Torah is not merely transmitted through giving information. Torah is a way of life, and must be transmitted by example.

Offline ADG

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #131 on: October 07, 2016, 12:22:40 PM »
I could, but that's not the point. He wants the yeshivos to accept behavior which is against halachah. That is hypocritical. If you don't practice what you preach, the lessons are ineffective and worthless.

Torah is not merely transmitted through giving information. Torah is a way of life, and must be transmitted by example.

I was not under the impression he was suggesting this for yeshivas rather for a college or children that are obviously not affiliated anyway.
 

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #132 on: October 07, 2016, 12:25:05 PM »
I was not under the impression he was suggesting this for yeshivas rather for a college or children that are obviously not affiliated anyway.
I don't know why that matters anyhow, but he was referring to teaching Torah to schoolchildren in Jewish schools, so I assume he meant in yeshivos.

Offline ADG

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #133 on: October 07, 2016, 12:26:54 PM »
My point is we put on Tefilin with people who openly transgress or for the sake of the argument here, trans-dress... Why would teaching torah be any different? and in no way is this condoning the negative behavior.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #134 on: October 07, 2016, 12:33:45 PM »
My point is we put on Tefilin with people who openly transgress or for the sake of the argument here, trans-dress... Why would teaching torah be any different? and in no way is this condoning the negative behavior.
Because schools have a right to have policies, so allowing someone to openly violate halachah in a school is effectively condoning it.

As an aside, you would put tefillin on a cross-dressed man?

Offline ADG

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #135 on: October 07, 2016, 12:46:39 PM »
Because schools have a right to have policies, so allowing someone to openly violate halachah in a school is effectively condoning it.

As an aside, you would put tefillin on a cross-dressed man?

Why not?

What if the school policy had nothing to do with you, like a college?


Offline sguitarist18

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #136 on: October 07, 2016, 12:54:19 PM »
It's one thing to go to someone who's not living a torah life, in whatever way, and encourage them to do mitzvos.

He's doing the opposite - going to a yeshiva, or torah institution, and encouraging them to do aveiros (allow crossdressing, boys in girls bathrooms (perhaps not a clear aveirah, but presumably halacha wouldn't permit), etc).

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #137 on: October 07, 2016, 01:08:35 PM »
Why not?

What if the school policy had nothing to do with you, like a college?
Because it's mius.

What does college and kiruv have to do with this discussion?

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #138 on: October 07, 2016, 01:09:10 PM »
It's one thing to go to someone who's not living a torah life, in whatever way, and encourage them to do mitzvos.

He's doing the opposite - going to a yeshiva, or torah institution, and encouraging them to do aveiros (allow crossdressing, boys in girls bathrooms (perhaps not a clear aveirah, but presumably halacha wouldn't permit), etc).
+1

Offline ShlockDoc

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #139 on: October 07, 2016, 01:09:56 PM »
I have a question that has been bothering me.  I respect the primacy of torah and halachic observance.  Obviously observances and standards vary  between communities, but there are some core halachic concepts that are indisputable.  I get that.  The question is what is the community's responsibility to people that don't fit into the halachic box?  What do we do with someone who believes in Halacha and Torah Misinai but isn't attracted to people of the opposite gender or who suffers from the various gender dysphoria issues?  Is there room to reject the sin but accept the sinner?  Obviously nobody can say that halachically the actions are acceptable but is there a mechanism to make the people suffering from these issues not feel like outcasts?  I'm not entirely sure what the answer looks like but I'm interested in your take.