Author Topic: Public letter  (Read 46478 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #240 on: June 27, 2018, 12:41:01 PM »
+1 eloquently said a big part of my point without coming across like a .... There's more also
If a non-religious Jew became religious would you accept him as you would someone that was religious from birth?
I just found a new supply of forks!

Online sguitarist18

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #241 on: June 27, 2018, 03:19:43 PM »
Absolutely.

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #242 on: June 27, 2018, 03:32:48 PM »
Absolutely.
I was asking @churnbabychurn but appreciate your response.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #243 on: June 27, 2018, 03:56:50 PM »
If a non-religious Jew became religious would you accept him as you would someone that was religious from birth?
Absolutely. 

No one is immune to heretical views.  An RFB (we call them FFBs) can also stray.   It is to be expected that someone who was raised with heretical views is more likely to stray and should be extra vigilant.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #244 on: June 27, 2018, 06:01:19 PM »
There were multiple points in history where practically our entire nation became BTs. Everyone is accepted back. Even Mike.....

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #245 on: June 27, 2018, 06:26:34 PM »
If a non-religious Jew became religious would you accept him as you would someone that was religious from birth?
Of course

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #246 on: June 27, 2018, 06:27:00 PM »
Absolutely. 

No one is immune to heretical views.  An RFB (we call them FFBs) can also stray.   It is to be expected that someone who was raised with heretical views is more likely to stray and should be extra vigilant.
+1

Offline cmey

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #247 on: June 27, 2018, 07:36:00 PM »
If a non-religious Jew became religious would you accept him as you would someone that was religious from birth?

According to some commentaries, one of the most well known and revered sages in the history of the Jewish people (Raish Lakish) was a respected Rosh Yeshiva, strayed to become the head of a feared gang of bandits, and became a BT, brought back to his religion by the great Rabbi Yochanan, who arranged for Raish Lakish to marry his sister. He subsequently became one of the greatest sages of the Talmud; there is not a student of the Talmud who does not encounter sayings of Raish Lakish throuout the Talmud. Others say that he was originally non-religious prior to meeting Rabbi Yochanan. Either way it is clear that a BT is accepted as an equal if not greater counterpart to an FFB. That does not detract from the points mentioned above....

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #248 on: June 27, 2018, 09:14:17 PM »
Often the same character traits that motivate a BT to make a major life change have the potential to lead him to where an FFB would never go. Itís not a judgment of the person; chazal say bimakom.... rather it is the reality of the situation. If a Rebbe and a like minded community are important for an FFB (and those that get by without those two are often worse off for it) they are indispensable for a BT. To simply integrate into a yeshivish community without that kind of support system is a risk. Iím sure many BTís have been successful but others may integrate on the surface but never really internalize ideas and ideals that FFBís take for granted. Itís just one aspect of a very complicated issue. This is not to take away from the amazing special people that many BTs are, having grown up in a neighborhood comprised of a large number of wonderful BTs who have my greatest respect and admiration.
Had a serious conversation with a good friend about these kinds of things, we came to the conclusion that the big differentiator for a BT is whether or not he attended yeshiva.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #249 on: June 27, 2018, 09:24:53 PM »
Had a serious conversation with a good friend about these kinds of things, we came to the conclusion that the big differentiator for a BT is whether or not he attended yeshiva.
Didn't seem to work for Mike.

Offline cmey

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #250 on: June 27, 2018, 10:05:57 PM »
Didn't seem to work for Mike.

כי ישרים דרכי ה' - צדיקים ילכו בם - ופושעים יכשלו בם
זכה - נעשית לו סם חיים, לא זכה - נעשית לו סם מיתה

Offline moko

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #251 on: June 27, 2018, 11:58:28 PM »
If a non-religious Jew became religious would you accept him as you would someone that was religious from birth?
I would point out (also related to our other discussion re: discrimination) that I employ over 50 people as kosher supervisors/inspectors/Mashgichim. At least 1/3 we're not religious thier entire lives. 6 are female (just about every position is open to women). 2 are African American. 1 Hispanic. 2 Iranian. 3 Israeli. 2 converts. Etc. We have a pretty diverse crowd and gladly accept anyone who is a capable, practicing Orthodox Jew (per our Rabbinical Council standards).

Offline henche

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #252 on: June 28, 2018, 09:59:33 AM »
I would point out (also related to our other discussion re: discrimination) that I employ over 50 people as kosher supervisors/inspectors/Mashgichim. At least 1/3 we're not religious thier entire lives. 6 are female (just about every position is open to women). 2 are African American. 1 Hispanic. 2 Iranian. 3 Israeli. 2 converts. Etc. We have a pretty diverse crowd and gladly accept anyone who is a capable, practicing Orthodox Jew (per our Rabbinical Council standards).

How many are henche?

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #253 on: June 28, 2018, 10:02:12 AM »
I would point out (also related to our other discussion re: discrimination) that I employ over 50 people as kosher supervisors/inspectors/Mashgichim. At least 1/3 we're not religious thier entire lives. 6 are female (just about every position is open to women). 2 are African American. 1 Hispanic. 2 Iranian. 3 Israeli. 2 converts. Etc. We have a pretty diverse crowd and gladly accept anyone who is a capable, practicing Orthodox Jew (per our Rabbinical Council standards).
would you hire netura karta as well?
["-"]

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #254 on: June 28, 2018, 11:45:05 AM »
כי ישרים דרכי ה' - צדיקים ילכו בם - ופושעים יכשלו בם
זכה - נעשית לו סם חיים, לא זכה - נעשית לו סם מיתה
Not sure how that's a reply to what I wrote.

Online Definitions

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #255 on: June 28, 2018, 12:52:16 PM »
Didn't seem to work for Mike.
Who's Mike?

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #256 on: June 28, 2018, 01:35:55 PM »
Who's Mike?
The writer of the letter posted in the OP of this thread.

Offline cmey

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #257 on: June 28, 2018, 06:28:25 PM »
Had a serious conversation with a good friend about these kinds of things, we came to the conclusion that the big differentiator for a BT is whether or not he attended yeshiva.

Didn't seem to work for Mike.


כי ישרים דרכי ה' - צדיקים ילכו בם - ופושעים יכשלו בם
זכה - נעשית לו סם חיים, לא זכה - נעשית לו סם מיתה


Not sure how that's a reply to what I wrote.

Going to a yeshiva and engaging in intense, authentic Torah learning, as well as having the opportunity to be meshamesh talmidei chachamim (a term that is not easily translated to  English) is an opportunity for one to mold his thoughts and hashkafos according to the Torah so that his commitment to a Torah lifestyle becomes firmly eastablished, and creates a foundation that one can build upon for the rest of his life. A BT who does not experience this is at  a great disadvantage.

On the other hand, one can twist the Torah to suit his preconceived notions, judgements, and values, and in that case the Torah he learns simply becomes a tool to further his own ideologies, using his knowledge of the Torah to justify his positions in any way that suits him. In that case his Torah learning wil be detrimental as in the quote of the words of chazal above.

In short, going to yeshiva gives a BT a tremendous opportunity that he would not have had, but is by no means a guarantee, as evidenced by our friend mike....



« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 06:34:45 PM by cmey »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #258 on: June 28, 2018, 06:46:35 PM »
Going to a yeshiva and engaging in intense, authentic Torah learning, as well as having the opportunity to be meshamesh talmidei chachamim (a term that is not easily translated to  English) is an opportunity for one to mold his thoughts and hashkafos according to the Torah so that his commitment to a Torah lifestyle becomes firmly eastablished, and creates a foundation that one can build upon for the rest of his life. A BT who does not experience this is at  a great disadvantage.

On the other hand, one can twist the Torah to suit his preconceived notions, judgements, and values, and in that case the Torah he learns simply becomes a tool to further his own ideologies, using his knowledge of the Torah to justify his positions in any way that suits him. In that case his Torah learning wil be detrimental as in the quote of the words of chazal above.

In short, going to yeshiva gives a BT a tremendous opportunity that he would not have had, but is by no means a guarantee, as evidenced by our friend mike....

For a BT to have attended Yeshiva (the earlier the better) makes a difference in many ways, one of the most visible ones being is how their families grow and integrate into the respective communities (though I only talk about this from within the Lubavitch communities vantage points).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Public letter
« Reply #259 on: June 28, 2018, 07:10:54 PM »


Going to a yeshiva and engaging in intense, authentic Torah learning, as well as having the opportunity to be meshamesh talmidei chachamim (a term that is not easily translated to  English) is an opportunity for one to mold his thoughts and hashkafos according to the Torah so that his commitment to a Torah lifestyle becomes firmly eastablished, and creates a foundation that one can build upon for the rest of his life. A BT who does not experience this is at  a great disadvantage.

On the other hand, one can twist the Torah to suit his preconceived notions, judgements, and values, and in that case the Torah he learns simply becomes a tool to further his own ideologies, using his knowledge of the Torah to justify his positions in any way that suits him. In that case his Torah learning wil be detrimental as in the quote of the words of chazal above.

In short, going to yeshiva gives a BT a tremendous opportunity that he would not have had, but is by no means a guarantee, as evidenced by our friend mike....
You can add all the nuance you like. I was just pointing out the incongruity of making that statement in a thread about a guy who is an exception to the stated generalization.