Shabbat and my United Flight

[Dan]

He doesn't needa answer that.

[Aaaron]

The thing is,  that I assume if there was a nred that you agreed with,  then you'd be ok with it.   But you don't see religious  needs as legitimate.  But they are.

Give me an example.  Of course I see religious needs as legitimate, I just lump this one in with the Chasidim as I mentioned earlier.

[henche]

Give me an example.  Of course I see religious needs as legitimate, I just lump this one in with the Chasidim as I mentioned earlier.

You give me an example.  Tell me where you'd be ok with religious needs outbalancing someone else's needs.

[aygart]

Give me an example.  Of course I see religious needs as legitimate, I just lump this one in with the Chasidim as I mentioned earlier.

so basically you feel that everyone needs to rely on the most lenient pinion even against their LOR when it will convenience others. That shows respect for differing opinions.

[ExGingi]

You had me until this part. Doesn't seem like an incident you wouldn't be sure about.

It's not like this incident happened yesterday.

Remember this was BA. This is before the days of fuel surcharges, or even etickets for that matter. At that time BA was my airline of choice as their executive club worked well for my needs, especially with family pooling. Back in those days I could have recited my Chase BA credit card number in my sleep. I could probably still do that even though it has been closed for at least 8 years. With all the churning and new cards going on in today's day and age, I can barely remember the last 4 of various cards.

[Aaaron]

so basically you feel that everyone needs to rely on the most lenient pinion even against their LOR when it will convenience others. That shows respect for differing opinions.

Pure hyperbole.  We're not talking about the most lenient opinion here.

Everyone thinks anyone more observant is an extremest and anyone less observant is a goy, that's just how it is.  Many people who wouldn't sit next to their wives while in niddah are the same ones who get upset at flights delayed by people not willing to sit next to someone of the opposite gender. 

ETA: And I'm willing to bet even the LOR who paskens you can't sit will tell you just get off, rather than inconveniencing the rest of the passengers in this situation. 

[ExGingi]

Everyone thinks anyone more observant is an extremest and anyone less observant is a goy, that's just how it is.  Many people who wouldn't sit next to their wives while in niddah are the same ones who get upset at flights delayed by people not willing to sit next to someone of the opposite gender.

Speak for yourself, especially when making such general statements.

If you follow the example of the בעל שם טוב and other Chassidishe Rebbes, you don't think that way about another Yid.

The attitude of negative generalization, and assuming one thing based on another, is what leads to bad outcomes.

[Aaaron]

Speak for yourself, especially when making such general statements.

If you follow the example of the בעל שם טוב and other Chassidishe Rebbes, you don't think that way about another Yid.

The attitude of negative generalization, and assuming one thing based on another, is what leads to bad outcomes.

A:  It's an expression not to be taken completely literally.
B:  Everyone (OK, not everyone, but the vast majority) judges.  Whether silently or out loud, we're all at fault.  It's naive to think otherwise; I'm not excusing it though.

[ExGingi]

A:  It's an expression not to be taken completely literally.
B:  Everyone (OK, not everyone, but the vast majority) judges.  Whether silently or out loud, we're all at fault.  It's naive to think otherwise; I'm not excusing it though.

סתירה מסיפא ארישא

Yet to follow what you are saying, unfortunately I am not disagreeing on your point B, if that wouldn't be the case and people would follow the דרך הבעש״ט we would be a lot closer to גאולה האמיתית והשלימה if not actually there.

[yitrap]

One of my rabbiyim once told me, everyone judges - the point is to judge favourably...

[ExGingi]

One of my rabbiyim once told me, everyone judges - the point is to judge favourably...

With that spelling, he must have been an Englishman 

It is a simple דבר משנה that everyone knows "הוי דן את כל האדם לכף זכות".

[jsk173]

Except that if you see the religious need as illegitimate,  it will always lose.

In a situation like this, such needs *should* always lose. Otherwise, anyone could use (alleged) religious "needs" as a trump card.

On a full flight, should the airline be able to instruct some random passenger to switch from an aisle to a middle because some other passenger claims a religious need? Ludicrous.

[Emkay]

In a situation like this, such needs *should* always lose. Otherwise, anyone could use (alleged) religious "needs" as a trump card.

On a full flight, should the airline be able to instruct some random passenger to switch from an aisle to a middle because some other passenger claims a religious need? Ludicrous.

Instruct? No
Ask? Sure

[henche]

In a situation like this, such needs *should* always lose. Otherwise, anyone could use (alleged) religious "needs" as a trump card.

On a full flight, should the airline be able to instruct some random passenger to switch from an aisle to a middle because some other passenger claims a religious need? Ludicrous.

See, that's what I'm saying. 

You've decided that my needs are illegitimate, and should always lose.  Aside from how outrageous and wrong that is, how do you expect that in that context I should respect your needs?

[jsk173]

Instruct? No
Ask? Sure

Nobody said the airline couldn't ask. But if everyone says "no," that's where it should end.

As far as this incident in particular, if this guy didn't get his way, he was going to deplane and inconvenience hundreds of other passengers with a delay.

[jsk173]

See, that's what I'm saying. 

You've decided that my needs are illegitimate, and should always lose.  Aside from how outrageous and wrong that is, how do you expect that in that context I should respect your needs?

What exactly are you arguing? Are you seriously arguing that, e.g., a Hasidic person on a full flight should be able to simply point at a seat he wants and instruct the person to move?

You don't seem to understand the concept of competing interests. You've decided your alleged religious needs trump the needs/preferences of other people.

[henche]

What exactly are you arguing? Are you seriously arguing that, e.g., a Hasidic person on a full flight should be able to simply point at a seat he wants and instruct the person to move?

You don't seem to understand the concept of competing interests. You've decided your alleged religious needs trump the needs/preferences of other people.

Let's not debate by taking everything to its extreme.  I'm only arguing that religious needs are just as legitimate as other needs.

I think you don't understand the concept of competing interests, since you've stated that you would never take my needs into account.  How is that fair?  You've decided that religious needs aren't legitimate. How is that fair?

Don't you see how outrageous it is for you to decide that my needs don't count?  Don't you see how you've dehumanized me, and made me an "other"?

[ExGingi]

What makes you think that any person shouldn't be permitted to choose to deplane?

There can be multiple reasons for such a choice. And sometimes it is actually the choice of a third party (airline, police, medical, etc).

An airline is supposed to provide a service. If a person doesn't feel that the service meets their minimum standard, that person should be allowed to decline the service offered, as long as it doesn't put anyone else in danger.

[jsk173]

Let's not debate by taking everything to its extreme.  I'm only arguing that religious needs are just as legitimate as other needs.

I think you don't understand the concept of competing interests, since you've stated that you would never take my needs into account.  How is that fair?  You've decided that religious needs aren't legitimate. How is that fair?

Don't you see how outrageous it is for you to decide that my needs don't count?  Don't you see how you've dehumanized me, and made me an "other"?

You're starting to sound hysterical.

I don't care if you feel "dehumanized" or any of that other silliness. That's just SJW crap posing as an argument.

Yes or no: If a Hasidic guy gets on a full plane and doesn't like his seat, should he be able to invoke "religious need" and boot some poor sap out of his aisle seat so the Hasidic guy can escape the middle seat he doesn't want?

[jsk173]

What makes you think that any person shouldn't be permitted to choose to deplane?

There can be multiple reasons for such a choice. And sometimes it is actually the choice of a third party (airline, police, medical, etc).

An airline is supposed to provide a service. If a person doesn't feel that the service meets their minimum standard, that person should be allowed to decline the service offered, as long as it doesn't put anyone else in danger.

"Danger" is your threshold? It's OK to inconvenience hundreds of passengers — over seat selection — as long as doing so doesn't put them in "danger"?