Shabbat and my United Flight

[henche]

You're starting to sound hysterical.

I don't care if you feel "dehumanized" or any of that other silliness. That's just SJW crap posing as an argument.

Yes or no: If a Hasidic guy gets on a full plane and doesn't like his seat, should he be able to invoke "religious need" and boot some poor sap out of his aisle seat so the Hasidic guy can escape the middle seat he doesn't want?

I don't think I'm sounding hysterical, but tone doesn't carry well through writing so I'll respect that.  Also, I'm deliberately not calling you names, and you shouldn't call me names.  It isn't SJW garbage, because I've actually stated the argument as relates to my point instead of lumping my argument in with some incorporated reference. 

My answer to your question is he should not be able to as a right, but the other people should respect his request to the extent it does not extremely inconvenience them.  For example, I don't think anyone should feel compelled to not sit next to their spouse to accommodate. What I don't agree with is the people who say that he's wrong to even ask and who say no as a matter of principle or because they don't care at all.   

[ExGingi]

"Danger" is your threshold? It's OK to inconvenience hundreds of passengers — over seat selection — as long as doing so doesn't put them in "danger"?

Yes. Danger is the threshold.

A flight (especially international) isn't a casual trip. No sane person would choose to deplane, which would probably come at a substantial cost to that person, unless there was a really important reason.

[jsk173]

I don't think I'm sounding hysterical, but tone doesn't carry well through writing so I'll respect that.  Also, I'm deliberately not calling you names, and you shouldn't call me names.  It isn't SJW garbage, because I've actually stated the argument as relates to my point instead of lumping my argument in with some incorporated reference. 

You claimed my position "dehumanized" and "othered" you, which is ridiculous. (Frankly, in 2016, people who refuse to sit next to a woman, or a menstruating woman, have "othered" themselves.)

My answer to your question is he should not be able to as a right, but the other people should respect his request to the extent it does not extremely inconvenience them.  For example, I don't think anyone should feel compelled to not sit next to their spouse to accommodate. What I don't agree with is the people who say that he's wrong to even ask and who say no as a matter of principle or because they don't care at all.

Changing from an aisle seat to a middle seat, on a full flight, is an "extreme inconvenience," especially for a full flight from Tel Aviv to New York, or something like that. Likewise, a 30- or 60-minute departure delay for a full flight after someone deplanes is an inconvenience.

[jsk173]

Yes. Danger is the threshold.

A flight (especially international) isn't a casual trip. No sane person would choose to deplane, which would probably come at a substantial cost to that person, unless there was a really important reason.

But sane people do think that one's menstruating wife is too dirty to sit next to? Come on.

[henche]

Changing from an aisle seat to a middle seat, on a full flight, is an "extreme inconvenience," especially for a full flight from Tel Aviv to New York, or something like that. Likewise, a 30- or 60-minute departure delay for a full flight after someone deplanes is an inconvenience.

I don't argue with any of the above. It sounds like you're agreeing with my position, that people should respect other people's religious needs. 

Thanks, been a pleasure. 

[jsk173]

I don't argue with any of the above. It sounds like you're agreeing with my position, that people should respect other people's religious needs. 

Respect, sure. I understand that people have different religious views, and they're free to follow them, no matter how nutty I might believe them to be. But I feel no need or pressure to accommodate such beliefs, nor should anyone else.

[sruliL]

I have a friend that was on the UA motzai Shabbos Flight EWR - TLV and they took off and then returned to the airport due to a malfunction and they had to missed the first days of yomtov in Israel ........................

I had a friend on that flight also, they couldn't get the cabin to pressurize. Worst part was, his wife and half of his family went ahead of him before Shabbos! They had to be separate for the first days

[ExGingi]

But sane people do think that one's menstruating wife is too dirty to sit next to? Come on.

You got it totally wrong, if anyone gets upset at this (which was not the case - you have made so many wrong assumptions that I can't even begin to point them out) the reason would have been pure jealousy (and we know that that is the source of antisemitism) that this jew can get away with saying he doesn't want to sit next to his wife when she's right there next to him! I am sure Bill Clinton (and many others) would have loved to be able to make such a public request in front of his wife, and not have his head served to his wife.

[ExGingi]

Respect, sure. I understand that people have different religious views, and they're free to follow them, no matter how nutty I might believe them to be. But I feel no need or pressure to accommodate such beliefs, nor should anyone else.

If a flight (such as the OP of this thread, with one fact changed) would have been scheduled to land on a Friday morning, and due to several delays ends up being ready for departure at a time which would have arrival one hour or even two before Shabbos, would you consider it legitimate for people to insist on deplaning despite the inconvenience to hundreds?

Where do YOU draw the line?

[aygart]

But sane people do think that one's menstruating wife is too dirty to sit next to? Come on.

you made his point for him better than he was able to himself

[henche]

Respect, sure. I understand that people have different religious views, and they're free to follow them, no matter how nutty I might believe them to be. But I feel no need or pressure to accommodate such beliefs, nor should anyone else.

Oh, so we don't agree. 

I don't think I have anything to add to what I've said above.  And if you can't balance my needs, you should understand why I wouldn't want to balance yours.

[jsk173]

You got it totally wrong, if anyone gets upset at this (which was not the case - you have made so many wrong assumptions that I can't even begin to point them out) the reason would have been pure jealousy (and we know that that is the source of antisemitism) that this jew can get away with saying he doesn't want to sit next to his wife when she's right there next to him! I am sure Bill Clinton (and many others) would have loved to be able to make such a public request in front of his wife, and not have his head served to his wife.

No, it wouldn't have been "jealousy" that would have made people upset here. It would have been the sense of entitlement and the lack of consideration for hundreds of other passengers.

[jsk173]

Oh, so we don't agree. 

I don't think I have anything to add to what I've said above.  And if you can't balance my needs, you should understand why I wouldn't want to balance yours.

How am I supposed to "balance your needs"? By jumping up from my aisle seat if you don't want to sit in the middle seat?

[aygart]

Respect, sure. I understand that people have different religious views, and they're free to follow them, no matter how nutty I might believe them to be. But I feel no need or pressure to accommodate such beliefs, nor should anyone else.

I think you need to check the difference in definition between respect and tolerance.

[jsk173]

I think you need to check the difference in definition between respect and tolerance.

No. As I said, I respect people's freedom to have nutty religious beliefs, and I tolerate them to the extent they don't inconvenience me or others.

[ExGingi]

No, it wouldn't have been "jealousy" that would have made people upset here. It would have been the sense of entitlement and the lack of consideration for hundreds of other passengers.

You seem to be so consumed with your opinions that you can't ever see the lighter side of things (unless an emoji is placed there, and I'm not sure if that would help).

This conversation is going nowhere faster than a Concord plane. So in ending remarks I will just set the record straight. There was no delay or inconvenience to any passenger, there were probably not "hundreds" on the plane, as it was a BA TLV-LHR segment which as far as I can recall wasn't a wide body aircraft.

[aygart]

No. As I said, I respect people's freedom to have nutty religious beliefs, and I tolerate them to the extent they don't inconvenience me or others.

that is not the same thing you wrote above. You write that you respect their belief now you wrote that you respect their right to have a belief which you don't respect.

Btw, quick quiz: how many middle seats are there on a full flight NYC-TLV?

[henche]

How am I supposed to "balance your needs"? By jumping up from my aisle seat if you don't want to sit in the middle seat?

Why don't you tell us any situation where you would be willing to concede anything for my religious needs. Then we can work from there.

[ExGingi]

Btw, quick quiz: how many middle seats are there on a full flight NYC-TLV?

That would obviously depend on equipment, but I would guess no more than 160 on the most dense 747. Possibly half that on 777

[Aaaron]

See, that's what I'm saying. 

You've decided that my needs are illegitimate, and should always lose.  Aside from how outrageous and wrong that is, how do you expect that in that context I should respect your needs?

Give me an example.  Of course I see religious needs as legitimate, I just lump this one in with the Chasidim as I mentioned earlier.

I've asked once already.  Please give me an example of "my needs," that you'd be asked to respect in a similar situation.