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objective

« Last edited by yesitsme on August 23, 2018, 02:21:17 PM »

Author Topic: Take Back Lakewood  (Read 258450 times)

Offline MidwestJoe

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2280 on: July 07, 2017, 03:11:39 PM »
Tonights Master Plan Density meeting



He (flannery) wasn't being paid to be there because he wasn't wearing a suit? Judging by his rambling, incoherent, filibuster, he was being paid by the word.

Offline MidwestJoe

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2281 on: July 07, 2017, 04:52:22 PM »
APP and USA Today., quoted extensively in one of their articles from a professor Heilman from CUNY to smear the Orthodox.  Below is some e-mail correspondence I had with the professor.

To Professor Samuel Heilman,
 
I read some quotes that were ascribed to you in the Asbury Park Press. I know that the press tends can on occasion, take quotes out of context, so I do not know if the quotes reflect your actual views or not. What I do know, is that those quotes do not portray an accurate picture of American Orthodox Jewry in the United States, or Lakewood. As a resident of Lakewood for the past 20 years, and an Orthodox Jew, I would like to clarify some if the points that were raised.
 
I quote from the APP “The Orthodox members ………. separate themselves from American laws and societal norms, Heilman said.” This is factually incorrect, Orthodox Law clearly states that “the law of the land, is the law”. It is true that Orthodox Jewry has laws in addition to U.S. laws, however that cannot be considered a separation, as Orthodox Jewish Law, is purposely inclusive of U.S. Law.
 
In regards to “separate themselves from ….societal norms” It would be interesting to know which specific societal norms you were referring
 
Another quote “"It's hard to persuade them that they're no longer living in a world where they want all the Jews dead,". I don’t want to assume anything, but I would imagine that this statement was made with some hyperbole. I was never raised on the presumption that all non-Jews wanted Jews dead. Growing up, I played ball daily with my Jewish and non-Jewish neighbors alike, and we were very friendly and respectful of each other.
 
The APP further quoted “Heilman said 50 to 65 percent of the Orthodox in Lakewood live below the poverty level. In many ways, the Orthodox are impoverished by choice — many are not college educated, most marry early, have large families and don't see public assistance as an embarrassment.” There are many people in this country who do not go to college, there are also many who attend college, yet spend their time in college on liberal arts coursework that do not create a path to financial success, would you suggest that  all these people are “impoverished by choice”. Aside for that, there has recently been an upwards trend in the number of Orthodox Jews in Lakewood in attending college, or college accredited programs.
 
Agudah, an Orthodox Organization, has programs were they partner with various colleges, and offer programs that lead to degrees. In one such program, they partnered with Farleigh Dickinson University on a program that the students would major in accounting. The Lakewood students who took that course last year, had the highest first pass rate on the CPA exam in the State of NJ.
 
Finally, the last quote “"Why don't they get a job? Why don't they have fewer children? Those are legitimate questions," Let’s examine each of these point individually. Firstly, “Why don’t you get a job”, well that would be a legitimate question if the  majority of Lakewood residents did not get a job. The truth is the vast majority (I would estimate 95% or more) of Orthodox Jews in Lakewood do get jobs.
 
Lakewood, has the fastest growing hub for UPS in the entire NJ, due to all the Orthodox Businesses that have opened and are continually opening, I have heard this from multiple UPS employees. I have heard the same from the freight carrier that I use.  The Lakewood business parks are full of Orthodox Jews who own or work in businesses there. There are multiple daily busses and carpools from Lakewood to Manhattan for people who commute to work.
 
What is most common amongst the Orthodox Community in Lakewood, is that when a couple first gets married, and the expenses are low, the wife will work to support the family, while the husband will study in Yeshiva. Often, even while in Yeshiva, the student will have an eye towards their future, often take courses, and in my case, rehabbing forclosed homes in my spare time. Once the family starts growing the husband will seek a job. Twenty years ago, when the cost of living was lower, the average time a husband would learn before pursuing his career, was about 5 years. Recently, as the cost of living has increased, it seems like many, if not most, are going to work after a year or two.  As far as the size of the families, do you have the same concerns regarding practicing Catholics?
 
The comment regarding the “moral blindness” I found personally upsetting on many levels. For one, during my time in Yeshiva, I likely spent thousands of hours studying ethics. A repeated theme of my primary rabbi in Yeshiva, was that a person needs to be a giver, not a taker. I currently own my own a successful growing  business, I work many hours, often 18 hours a day. I pay approximately $10k a year in property taxes, the majority of which goes to the public schools, which my children do not attend. I also pay income tax at about a 40% rate, I am extremely honest in business and have never mistreated a customer or vendor. I am not an anomaly in my community, if I was, perhaps I would be in the news. After all, it is the anomalies that make for a good story.
 
Respectfuly,

XXXX

I suggest that you write your letter to the newspaper. I'm not responsible for what a reporter has understood and written after interviewing me. If you are interested in my understanding I suggest you read something I have actually authored, of which there are considerably many books and articles. If you have questions about those I'm happy to respond.

Samuel Heilman
Sent from my iPhone


 

Offline HBS

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2282 on: July 07, 2017, 05:25:24 PM »
Forward that exchange to the APP, see what they respond...

Offline MidwestJoe

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2283 on: July 07, 2017, 05:33:44 PM »
Forward that exchange to the APP, see what they respond...

I would except, i used up my free views on their website, and there is no way I am paying them money

Offline HBS

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2284 on: July 07, 2017, 05:34:41 PM »
I would except, i used up my free views on their website, and there is no way I am paying them money
I think it's IP based, so there should be plenty of ways to get around that...

Offline HBS

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2285 on: July 07, 2017, 05:37:21 PM »
I would except, i used up my free views on their website, and there is no way I am paying them money
I also found the article picked up by USA today.https://www.google.com/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/447441001/

Offline yelped

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2286 on: July 08, 2017, 11:32:17 PM »
@MidwestJoe Thanks for taking the time to write that letter! It is a very impressive letter, a lot of good points. Unfortunately, his suggestion that you read his books won't make you change your impression of him. This is his thing that he devotes his life to, unfortunately..

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2287 on: July 09, 2017, 09:48:18 AM »
Press him that if it is indeed a misrepresentation of his views then he has the moral obligation to call for the record to be corrected. But if he refuses to do that, then the responsibility of what the APP wrote lies squarely on him.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2288 on: July 09, 2017, 10:12:59 AM »
Press him that if it is indeed a misrepresentation of his views then he has the moral obligation to call for the record to be corrected. But if he refuses to do that, then the responsibility of what the APP wrote lies squarely on him.

He preempted that by saying he isn't responsible for what he wrote.
PGF24BMGS

Offline takebacklakewood

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2289 on: July 09, 2017, 10:18:05 AM »
Invalid Tweet ID

Offline takebacklakewood

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2290 on: July 09, 2017, 10:57:35 AM »
Invalid Tweet ID

Offline Dawie

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2291 on: July 09, 2017, 01:19:07 PM »
I think it's IP based, so there should be plenty of ways to get around that...
incognito works

Offline cmey

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2292 on: July 09, 2017, 04:48:40 PM »
The latest post on TBL reminds me of Korach picking an opportune moment when the time presented itself to press his advantage (see Ramban). While we wil never know for sure, I would not be surprised if the shopping center letter that made it to the press about the Jews wanting to keep Akum out, despite the damage control after the fact by TBL, was one of the triggers that led to so many facing problems in our community, and ended up with the community being unjustly maligned as a whole in the eyes of the nation. Things were  relatively quiet for a couple of years and if there was indeed a trigger that pushed them to make a move now that campaign and resulting press coverage is a pretty good bet....

It seems to me that TBL is taking something that to me appears to be legitimate and using the current climate to attack it. Serious stuff to take achrayus for so I hope there is no shelo lishmah motivation in the mix.


Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2293 on: July 09, 2017, 05:20:56 PM »


While we wil never know for sure, I would not be surprised if the shopping center letter that made it to the press about the Jews wanting to keep Akum out, despite the damage control after the fact by TBL, was one of the triggers that led to so many facing problems in our community, and ended up with the community being unjustly maligned as a whole in the eyes of the nation. Things were  relatively quiet for a couple of years and if there was indeed a trigger that pushed them to make a move now that campaign and resulting press coverage is a pretty good bet....


hyperbole


Offline cmey

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Re: Take Back Lakewood
« Reply #2294 on: July 09, 2017, 06:43:24 PM »
hyperbole

You can call it that but I would call it a reaction to having a neighbor who is a special person and is suffering from recent events (not justifying his actions but he tried to do things right and truly lived an impoverished lifestyle and would not usually have been a target of LE) and coming to the realization that some people are really playing with people's lives...