Author Topic: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families  (Read 48414 times)

Offline yitzf

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #150 on: November 08, 2017, 11:17:00 PM »
I donít think people realize the enormous impact to the entire Frum community here. If QTR is eliminated it will affect almost everyone with kids. Schools will have to raise tuition dramatically to retain rabbeim who will now have to pay for private health insurance and taxes on their tuition benefits. This will effectively lower their take home pay by tens of thousands of dollars. QTR is what allows the rabbeim and morahs to work for the relatively low salaries they receive right now. There is no way that the best and the brightest will stay without compensation for their lost income. And every one of us will be footing that bill. We have to reach out to our elected officials to tell them that this issue is of paramount importance to our community and get them to intervene before it is too late...

Agreed, this is huge. The problem is that it doesn't look like they are allowing any amendments on the House floor so not sure if much can be done at this point. The Senate is expected to release their version tomorrow so we'll have to see what they have in mind, but the Senate is being even more fiscally constrained so I'm not too optimistic. I guess there could be a chance once they go to conference.

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.

We definitely need to raise awareness.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #151 on: November 09, 2017, 08:35:01 AM »

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.
That is seemingly the target.

A direct hit to the left wing which dominates academia.

The frum community is collateral damage.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline aygart

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #152 on: November 09, 2017, 08:49:30 AM »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline CPA

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #153 on: November 09, 2017, 09:23:56 AM »
It looks like the Senate version will get rid of the real estate tax deduction completely  (where's the House version capped it at 10k). This proposal will have minimal impact on the poor and lower middle class  (unless your an employee of a Yeshiva), raise taxes on the upper middle class  (even more so if you have a large family living in NY/NJ/CA) and will benefit the super wealthy. Basically the Democrats are right on this  (I can't believe I actually said that).

Offline hachover

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #154 on: November 09, 2017, 11:09:54 AM »
It looks like the Senate version will get rid of the real estate tax deduction completely  (where's the House version capped it at 10k). This proposal will have minimal impact on the poor and lower middle class  (unless your an employee of a Yeshiva), raise taxes on the upper middle class  (even more so if you have a large family living in NY/NJ/CA) and will benefit the super wealthy. Basically the Democrats are right on this  (I can't believe I actually said that).

It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #155 on: November 09, 2017, 12:26:28 PM »
It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
You are absolutely correct. The only way to raise the revenues is by broadening the tax base. The problem is that this bill isn't true reform, it's just tweaking and changing things, still allowing special interests to have an influence. Interestingly, from what I've seen, the proposed bill gets rid of the Estate Tax, but doesn't get rid of the stepped-up basis, or impose a capital gains tax at death, which most estate tax repeal suggestions have as a reasonable offset (I really wonder which SIG managed to get the bill to include a repeal of the Estate Tax while keeping the step-up in basis).

The tax code is too long, and really needs to be entirely scrapped and rewritten in a simple way. There's no way out of imposing a VAT, and (I think) I'd much rather have it done when the Rs are in power, so that some limits and checks and balances are put in place along with it, rather than the Ds puting it in place.

Very importantly, true reform should eliminate (to the greatest extent possible) the huge tradeoffs that come with increased income (at least up to around $250,000 of income is reached). Having to worry about the next $1,000 in earnings costing more than just the tax on those $1,000, such as the loss of other benefits which were available without those $1,000, isn't something that does good for the individual or for the economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-11-09/how-to-break-out-of-our-long-national-tax-nightmare
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #156 on: November 09, 2017, 02:54:40 PM »
It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
That analysis sort of presumes the plan is revenue neutral. Has that been claimed (by either version)?

Offline hachover

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #157 on: November 09, 2017, 04:47:55 PM »
That analysis sort of presumes the plan is revenue neutral. Has that been claimed (by either version)?

No. But its inaccurate to say that the plan has to be revenue neutral for what I said to be true. There are winners and losers and even if the degree of losing isn't equal to the degree of winning, it's in the ballpark, and that has to come from upper-middle.

But one thing I just learned about today - that is potentially huge - is that under the plan all NQ comp has to be paid out within the next 10 years so that it can be taxed. Can anyone confirm that? If it's true, I'll have to completely take back what I said about not being able to grab enough revenue from just the small number of income earners at the very top.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #158 on: November 09, 2017, 06:00:41 PM »
No. But its inaccurate to say that the plan has to be revenue neutral for what I said to be true. There are winners and losers and even if the degree of losing isn't equal to the degree of winning, it's in the ballpark, and that has to come from upper-middle.
Not following your logic. If it doesn't need to be revenue neutral, the provisions intended to lower taxes on businesses don't need to be offset by raising taxes on any particular segment of individuals.

Offline aygart

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #159 on: November 09, 2017, 06:05:19 PM »
They have an arbitrary limit of how much revenue it can cost.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #160 on: November 09, 2017, 06:52:39 PM »
They have an arbitrary limit of how much revenue it can cost.
Link?

Offline hachover

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #161 on: November 09, 2017, 07:29:37 PM »
Not following your logic. If it doesn't need to be revenue neutral, the provisions intended to lower taxes on businesses don't need to be offset by raising taxes on any particular segment of individuals.

Revenue non-neutral comes in degrees. A free giveaway to businesses is impossible. A full offset from individuals is not happening. Make the assumption that a significant percentage is offset and my statement should make sense.

Essentially what @aygart  said.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2017, 08:09:29 PM »
Revenue non-neutral comes in degrees. A free giveaway to businesses is impossible. A full offset from individuals is not happening. Make the assumption that a significant percentage is offset and my statement should make sense.

Essentially what @aygart  said.
What they've proposed may turn out to be just as 'impossible'. You're trying to say that since they wanted lower business taxes, therefore they needed to make the specific increases they've proposed. I don't see that as a true statement at all.

Offline hachover

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #163 on: November 09, 2017, 08:14:46 PM »
What they've proposed may turn out to be just as 'impossible'. You're trying to say that since they wanted lower business taxes, therefore they needed to make the specific increases they've proposed. I don't see that as a true statement at all.

What do you see as true
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #164 on: November 09, 2017, 08:20:49 PM »
What do you see as true
That cutting business taxes doesn't necessitate the specific changes for individuals that they proposed.