Author Topic: Trump-Republican tax plan, Bad for large families  (Read 138370 times)

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6738
  • Total likes: 1097
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #140 on: November 07, 2017, 12:18:11 PM »
Overall this is not looking good for the average frum family.
FTFY
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline hachover

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 516
  • Total likes: 102
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #141 on: November 07, 2017, 02:00:52 PM »
I fully expect the SALT and other deduction removals to be changed, even if not entirely preserved.

That said, it is with no subtlety that this tax plan favors first corporations, then high income earners, then middle class. Like most things Trump does, the first offer is "screw you" with the hopes of getting the other side to negotiate their way to something only slightly less detrimental for themselves. So far this strategy hasn't worked very well in the political arena - the other side doesn't engage the way people who are negotiating for their own interests would.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline CPA

  • Non-Elite Member
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 0
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #142 on: November 07, 2017, 02:32:07 PM »
FTFY
No fix necessary, I meant average frum family.
Frum families tend to have more children than the average family putting them at a larger disadvantage with this proposal. And secondly the bulk of frum families in America live in states with a high state income tax and real estate tax which will adversely affect them more than a family for example in Wyoming.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #143 on: November 07, 2017, 02:48:05 PM »
No fix necessary, I meant average frum family.
Frum families tend to have more children than the average family putting them at a larger disadvantage with this proposal. And secondly the bulk of frum families in America live in states with a high state income tax and real estate tax which will adversely affect them more than a family for example in Wyoming.
Yes. Indeed. The average frum family does seem to be worse off with this plan. Penalizing large families is bad public and economic policy. Just look at Europe's and Japan's shrinking population problems. The Japanese haven't figured out what to do yet, and the Europeans imported Muslims to make up from shrinking populations, with very significant unintended consequences.

I actually have very mixed feelings about this. While the plan does away with all kinds of special interests and subsidies, it is just a tweak rather than an overhaul - which is what this country needs. QTR (along with many other provisions) are highly discriminatory based on a person's employer. What we need is a LEVEL playing field, where people can make decisions based on the actual merits, rather than having to figure out tax consequences of the decision.

I have clients who take advantage of QTR to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year. This is also beneficial to the employers, as they save on their FICA and workers comp! I would hate to see my clients lose that benefit (though I believe a workaround will be found), but I really think that the fact that the treatments of a person's income should be different based on where he or she works, or the ability to purchase health insurance be tied to the workplace, is something that it is high time America puts in its dark past.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Deal Guy

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 4957
  • Total likes: 131
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #144 on: November 07, 2017, 04:53:12 PM »
They just added back the deduction for up to $5,000 of employer-provided dependent-care assistance.

https://waysandmeansforms.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_chairman_amendment.pdf
Nice.
An amendment is as good as the actual law?

Offline yitzf

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2623
  • Total likes: 52
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #145 on: November 07, 2017, 04:55:49 PM »
Nice.
An amendment is as good as the actual law?

Neither one is actual law, but yes an amendment would be the same as the original bill.

But this QTR thing is a huge blow. Can also knock many Rebbeim and teachers off of Medicaid.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 05:07:56 PM by yitzf »

Offline hachover

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 516
  • Total likes: 102
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #146 on: November 07, 2017, 05:21:28 PM »
How would this tax plan look different if people were able to vote on it instead of elected officials? Would that be a better structure?

I'm asking this only partly hypothetically- we almost have the technology today to get rid of elected officials entirely and replace them by giving voters the ability to weigh in on every issue directly.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 1929
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #147 on: November 07, 2017, 05:26:06 PM »
How would this tax plan look different if people were able to vote on it instead of elected officials? Would that be a better structure?

I'm asking this only partly hypothetically- we almost have the technology today to get rid of elected officials entirely and replace them by giving voters the ability to weigh in on every issue directly.

The Founders chose a Representative Democracy over a Direct Democracy quite deliberately. 

ETA:  Here's an easy read:

http://www.economist.com/node/18586520
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 05:31:51 PM by Boruch999 »

Offline Deal Guy

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2009
  • Posts: 4957
  • Total likes: 131
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 9
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #148 on: November 08, 2017, 07:46:55 PM »
Were there any amendments added today?

Offline yzj

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 632
  • Total likes: 373
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: usa
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #149 on: November 08, 2017, 10:56:29 PM »
Neither one is actual law, but yes an amendment would be the same as the original bill.

But this QTR thing is a huge blow. Can also knock many Rebbeim and teachers off of Medicaid.

I don’t think people realize the enormous impact to the entire Frum community here. If QTR is eliminated it will affect almost everyone with kids. Schools will have to raise tuition dramatically to retain rabbeim who will now have to pay for private health insurance and taxes on their tuition benefits. This will effectively lower their take home pay by tens of thousands of dollars. QTR is what allows the rabbeim and morahs to work for the relatively low salaries they receive right now. There is no way that the best and the brightest will stay without compensation for their lost income. And every one of us will be footing that bill. We have to reach out to our elected officials to tell them that this issue is of paramount importance to our community and get them to intervene before it is too late...

Offline yitzf

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2623
  • Total likes: 52
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #150 on: November 08, 2017, 11:17:00 PM »
I don’t think people realize the enormous impact to the entire Frum community here. If QTR is eliminated it will affect almost everyone with kids. Schools will have to raise tuition dramatically to retain rabbeim who will now have to pay for private health insurance and taxes on their tuition benefits. This will effectively lower their take home pay by tens of thousands of dollars. QTR is what allows the rabbeim and morahs to work for the relatively low salaries they receive right now. There is no way that the best and the brightest will stay without compensation for their lost income. And every one of us will be footing that bill. We have to reach out to our elected officials to tell them that this issue is of paramount importance to our community and get them to intervene before it is too late...

Agreed, this is huge. The problem is that it doesn't look like they are allowing any amendments on the House floor so not sure if much can be done at this point. The Senate is expected to release their version tomorrow so we'll have to see what they have in mind, but the Senate is being even more fiscally constrained so I'm not too optimistic. I guess there could be a chance once they go to conference.

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.

We definitely need to raise awareness.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #151 on: November 09, 2017, 08:35:01 AM »

This affects graduate student at universities also so we're not the only ones in this, but of all the people screaming we are still a very small constituency.
That is seemingly the target.

A direct hit to the left wing which dominates academia.

The frum community is collateral damage.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #152 on: November 09, 2017, 08:49:30 AM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline CPA

  • Non-Elite Member
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 0
  • Total likes: 4
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #153 on: November 09, 2017, 09:23:56 AM »
It looks like the Senate version will get rid of the real estate tax deduction completely  (where's the House version capped it at 10k). This proposal will have minimal impact on the poor and lower middle class  (unless your an employee of a Yeshiva), raise taxes on the upper middle class  (even more so if you have a large family living in NY/NJ/CA) and will benefit the super wealthy. Basically the Democrats are right on this  (I can't believe I actually said that).

Offline hachover

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 516
  • Total likes: 102
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #154 on: November 09, 2017, 11:09:54 AM »
It looks like the Senate version will get rid of the real estate tax deduction completely  (where's the House version capped it at 10k). This proposal will have minimal impact on the poor and lower middle class  (unless your an employee of a Yeshiva), raise taxes on the upper middle class  (even more so if you have a large family living in NY/NJ/CA) and will benefit the super wealthy. Basically the Democrats are right on this  (I can't believe I actually said that).

It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7710
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive Platinum®
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #155 on: November 09, 2017, 12:26:28 PM »
It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
You are absolutely correct. The only way to raise the revenues is by broadening the tax base. The problem is that this bill isn't true reform, it's just tweaking and changing things, still allowing special interests to have an influence. Interestingly, from what I've seen, the proposed bill gets rid of the Estate Tax, but doesn't get rid of the stepped-up basis, or impose a capital gains tax at death, which most estate tax repeal suggestions have as a reasonable offset (I really wonder which SIG managed to get the bill to include a repeal of the Estate Tax while keeping the step-up in basis).

The tax code is too long, and really needs to be entirely scrapped and rewritten in a simple way. There's no way out of imposing a VAT, and (I think) I'd much rather have it done when the Rs are in power, so that some limits and checks and balances are put in place along with it, rather than the Ds puting it in place.

Very importantly, true reform should eliminate (to the greatest extent possible) the huge tradeoffs that come with increased income (at least up to around $250,000 of income is reached). Having to worry about the next $1,000 in earnings costing more than just the tax on those $1,000, such as the loss of other benefits which were available without those $1,000, isn't something that does good for the individual or for the economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-11-09/how-to-break-out-of-our-long-national-tax-nightmare
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #156 on: November 09, 2017, 02:54:40 PM »
It's not even up for debate. The plan helps businesses at the expense of individuals- there's no money to take from the lower income class, and there are just not enough super high income people to pay the bill even if we raised taxes on them (not to mention they would use their resources for tax avoidance). The upper 20% is the only bucket that can be tapped into
That analysis sort of presumes the plan is revenue neutral. Has that been claimed (by either version)?

Offline hachover

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 516
  • Total likes: 102
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #157 on: November 09, 2017, 04:47:55 PM »
That analysis sort of presumes the plan is revenue neutral. Has that been claimed (by either version)?

No. But its inaccurate to say that the plan has to be revenue neutral for what I said to be true. There are winners and losers and even if the degree of losing isn't equal to the degree of winning, it's in the ballpark, and that has to come from upper-middle.

But one thing I just learned about today - that is potentially huge - is that under the plan all NQ comp has to be paid out within the next 10 years so that it can be taxed. Can anyone confirm that? If it's true, I'll have to completely take back what I said about not being able to grab enough revenue from just the small number of income earners at the very top.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3810
  • Total likes: 826
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #158 on: November 09, 2017, 06:00:41 PM »
No. But its inaccurate to say that the plan has to be revenue neutral for what I said to be true. There are winners and losers and even if the degree of losing isn't equal to the degree of winning, it's in the ballpark, and that has to come from upper-middle.
Not following your logic. If it doesn't need to be revenue neutral, the provisions intended to lower taxes on businesses don't need to be offset by raising taxes on any particular segment of individuals.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 17395
  • Total likes: 14333
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Trump-Republican tax plan bad for large families
« Reply #159 on: November 09, 2017, 06:05:19 PM »
They have an arbitrary limit of how much revenue it can cost.
Feelings don't care about your facts