Poll

Is Global warming real and are humans significantly contributing to it?

Not Real
9 (12.2%)
Real + Significant Human Contribution
19 (25.7%)
Real But No Significant Human Contribution
13 (17.6%)
Unsure
4 (5.4%)
It's a moot point everything is up to Hashem
29 (39.2%)

Total Members Voted: 74

Author Topic: global warming- what's your take?  (Read 42899 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #120 on: July 01, 2021, 04:49:10 PM »
He claims the climate has been cooling?
If the data is unreliable then we know nothing other than what happened over the last 30 years which is not that useful. Are you being intentionally asinine?
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Offline S209

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #121 on: July 01, 2021, 05:31:33 PM »
If the data is unreliable then we know nothing other than what happened over the last 30 years which is not that useful. Are you being intentionally asinine?
That isn’t the first ad hominem slur you’ve hurled that I don’t fully get why you’re slinging.

I didn’t read through what he said, I took a cursory glance. Did he disagree with what I said? Does he not believe we are currently warming, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future?
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Offline S209

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #122 on: July 01, 2021, 05:34:53 PM »
This piece demonstrates much of what I've been saying about how politics and the media change the way "science" is conducted and published, not just how it is spoken about by the left-wing media. There is no way to look at the broader medical community's actions in relation to HCQ, from the FDA, to the premier medical journals; from state and Federal public health officials to private doctors and conclude that "The state of the information ecosystem is strong."
There is- because the truth will certainly emerge, and the data we do have now is already freely available to all. At this point, there is far from sufficient data to support Dr. Z’s claims and plenty against. There is possibly some mild benefit, and we know whatever is out there now and will know when the data is more conclusive as well.

Part of the ecosystem is people trying to discredit others, fighting, cover ups, leaks, research funded and funding removed. Eventually, the truth always emerges.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #123 on: July 01, 2021, 05:55:00 PM »
There is- because the truth will certainly emerge, and the data we do have now is already freely available to all. At this point, there is far from sufficient data to support Dr. Z’s claims and plenty against. There is possibly some mild benefit, and we know whatever is out there now and will know when the data is more conclusive as well.

Part of the ecosystem is people trying to discredit others, fighting, cover ups, leaks, research funded and funding removed. Eventually, the truth always emerges.
What are you talking about? Eventually? After how many people died unnecessarily? 1? 2? 1000? 10,000? We'll never know. Studies were stopped. The treatment was banned many states for heaven's sake! This was all because of politics. Doctors didn't prescribe a potentially life saving drug because of politics. And the truth will never come out because we're long past looking for treatments.

Note how Dr Z isn't mentioned once. Not by me and not in the article I posted. Yet you brought him into it to give my side the air of lunacy and conspiracy theory. Nicely done.


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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #124 on: July 01, 2021, 06:05:59 PM »
Note how Dr Z isn't mentioned once. Not by me and not in the article I posted. Yet you brought him into it to give my side the air of lunacy and conspiracy theory. Nicely done.

To be fair, you can't mention HQC and not have Dr Z and the French guy immediately come to mind. It was born from lunatics, hence the air of lunacy.
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Offline S209

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #125 on: July 01, 2021, 06:20:01 PM »
What are you talking about? Eventually? After how many people died unnecessarily? 1? 2? 1000? 10,000? We'll never know. Studies were stopped. The treatment was banned many states for heaven's sake! This was all because of politics. Doctors didn't prescribe a potentially life saving drug because of politics. And the truth will never come out because we're long past looking for treatments.

Note how Dr Z isn't mentioned once. Not by me and not in the article I posted. Yet you brought him into it to give my side the air of lunacy and conspiracy theory. Nicely done.
Right, because of politics people died. I didn’t disagree with that. Never did. Never will. You are totally misrepresenting my position, either deliberately or because you didn’t understand what I have been saying. I agree that politics plays a role in hindering and delaying the process, among many other factors. I just don’t think it’s a fatal flaw.

I disagree with the premise that science will not arrive at the correct conclusion (we were discussing climate change, which has been a very hot topic for well over a decade now). The truth *will* emerge and likely already has. There is no actual censorship, there is plenty of diversity of thought, and our system is robust enough to eventually sift through the chaff and leave the wheat.

HCQ is obviously not nearly as effective as it’s proponents have claimed, and many of their original claims (that it is useful in treating seriously ill patients) has been completely shredded. I bet you don’t even remember when they were claiming it was saving lives in hospitals. There is a little evidence that it may, in combination with other drugs, offer a *very slight* benefit when given early on, but that is far from definitive. There have been hundreds of studies performed to date and that is where we are holding now, and after all is said and done, is where the truth will probably remain.

I didn’t read the “article” (it looks to be around 50 pages long). I didn’t bring Dr. Z in. Someone upthread mentioned his name, maybe you, maybe others. He has obviously been the face of the pro HCQ movement around here whether you like it or not, and I couldn’t think of someone better to have used as the “scientist” in favor of his position. Would you have preferred I use Trump? But you are deciding why I did something and labeling me based on that false assumption. Nicely done.

Oh, one more thing. It’s nearly certain that thousands have *not* died “unnecessarily”. As far as I’m aware, there has been no lowering of the death rate even among those few studies which indeed showed a benefit. And the CDC was aware of that when they issued their guidance.

Our system is excellent at producing good ideas and good science. The end.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2021, 06:23:07 PM by S209 »
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #126 on: July 01, 2021, 06:23:08 PM »
To be fair, you can't mention HQC and not have Dr Z and the French guy immediately come to mind. It was born from lunatics, hence the air of lunacy.

The French guy was branded eccentric before HCQ and a lunatic after. This is part of the problem. The misinformation campaign includes denigrating people to ensure no one risks their reputation to stick their neck out. And for all his supposed lunacy, he's quite an accomplished doctor.

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #127 on: July 01, 2021, 06:31:19 PM »
The French guy was branded eccentric before HCQ and a lunatic after. This is part of the problem. The misinformation campaign includes denigrating people to ensure no one risks their reputation to stick their neck out. And for all his supposed lunacy, he's quite an accomplished doctor.

Dr Z was also considered completely normal before this started. I don't think you'd label him normal now. FTR, I'm not sure I'd call the French guy a lunatic (I know I did above). For all of his accomplishments, though, he ultimately conducted a very faulty study which gave a lot of room for criticism of HCQ as a viable option. The criticism at the time was very much grounded in the science, and the mockery was of Trump pushing something that was based on faulty science and the say-so of a village doctor.
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #128 on: July 01, 2021, 06:32:26 PM »
Right, because of politics people died.

 I just don’t think it’s a fatal flaw.


HCQ is obviously not nearly as effective as it’s proponents have claimed, and many of their original claims (that it is useful in treating seriously ill patients) has been completely shredded.

From the begging the French lunatic was abundantly clear out had to be used early. The fact that it wasn't successful on people who was sick was used against it when that was never the claim made.

I didn’t read the “article” (it looks to be around 50 pages long).

Clearly. I know it's long, it's well worth your time. You are simply wrong on many HCQ claims.

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #129 on: July 01, 2021, 06:46:09 PM »
Dr Z was also considered completely normal before this started. I don't think you'd label him normal now. FTR, I'm not sure I'd call the French guy a lunatic (I know I did above). For all of his accomplishments, though, he ultimately conducted a very faulty study which gave a lot of room for criticism of HCQ as a viable option. The criticism at the time was very much grounded in the science, and the mockery was of Trump pushing something that was based on faulty science and the say-so of a village doctor.

You also didn't read the piece, I take it.

Dr Z has long been known as a "character".

Criticism of Trump is one thing, mocking anyone who dares say something positive about a drug he also touted is quite another.

His studies were only faulty if you tried to extrapolate claims he didn't make.

Offline S209

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #130 on: July 01, 2021, 07:06:14 PM »
From the begging the French lunatic was abundantly clear out had to be used early. The fact that it wasn't successful on people who was sick was used against it when that was never the claim made.

Clearly. I know it's long, it's well worth your time. You are simply wrong on many HCQ claims.
Totally false. His initial experiment that was published was run on only hospitalized patients. Tell me more about what I don’t know about HCQ.

I’ll remind you of the timeline. After it was shown conclusively that it had absolutely no positive effect on hospitalized patients, proponents (like Dr. Z) claimed it only worked in early stages and that they had been claiming it all along. Perhaps they’re right about early intervention- that’s naturally a much more difficult claim to prove (and it’s fascinating how confident they were from so early on, when it was impossible to know if they were correct, with no subsequent decrease in confidence).

But they were certainly not claiming it from day one.

ETA: Just a glance at your article provided me with this:
Quote
On March 12, Michigan state Rep. Karen Whitsett, a Democrat representing the 9th Michigan House District in Detroit, went into quarantine for cornavirus symptoms, and by March 31 got her test results and was diagnosed with such a serious case of COVID-19 that she thought she was dying. She and her physician, Dr. Mohammed Arsiwala, sought permission to use HCQ but could not get it, because the Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs, under Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, had issued an order prohibiting the use of HCQ for COVID-19.

So much for “it was always for early treatment”… she was asking for it 3 weeks post-diagnosis.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2021, 07:12:52 PM by S209 »
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Offline biobook

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #131 on: July 01, 2021, 07:09:59 PM »
That's a simplification of what the French doctor claimed, and my assertion was not that it wasn't studied, but that it wasn't treated the same way, i.e. that the trials and studies were not given the same credence trials with similar results would be given for emergency treatments for a global pandemic. The following is lengthy, but gives a pretty good accounting for the timeline:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/hydroxychloroquine-morality-tale
Lengthy, and after reading it, wouldn't recommend it to others. 

The "timeline"covered in the article gives a selective view of the HCQ-related research between March and August 2020, with little mention of the considerable increase in knowledge over that time regarding the virus mechanisms of action, disease progression, other treatments, transmission, etc.  The problem with HCQ was not only that evidence was accumulating that it had only a minor effect, but that there was increasing evidence that other treatments were better.  Despite that, studies of HCQ were continued with the hope that even if it proved to be only slightly helpful, it could still be a useful drug for countries that lacked access to more expensive treatments.

A historical analysis of covid treatment in the early days of the pandemic would be fascinating to read, but this essay isn't a fair-minded review.  The author has a clear bias  in his writing, as in this paragraph, for example:

"Trump’s political base cheered for HCQ and his opponents booed and accused him of practicing medicine without a license..."
When a person without a medical degree prescribes medication, that's called practicing medicine without a license, and it's illegal in every state.  It wasn't "his opponents" saying this, it was everyone who had even a smattering of knowledge about either law or medicine.  This is the president, a politician.  What kind of credibility does he have for providing medical advice?  The president appoints a Surgeon General for just this purpose, and the CDC traditionally provides such advice in times of emergency. 

"...—and began dredging up any evidence, or “experts,” they could find, who might emphasize that HCQ was dangerous, or useless, or both..."
Of course journalists and citizens wanted to hear about medical treatments from medical experts, not from a real estate mogul.  Yet the author here puts experts in quotes, as if to downplay the knowledge of Fauci et al.  The experts generally agreed that HCQ was dangerous and useless, one didn't have to "dredge" in the bottom of the barrel to get that opinion.

I don't remember all the research from the past year, but I do remember reading the Henry Ford study he mentions, where 26% of untreated patients died, and only 13% of HCQ-treated patients.  He neglects to mention that doctors throughout the hospital system were free to prescribe HCQ or not, and one limitation of the study was that it's possible that doctors who saw severe cases who were already getting a host of drugs didn't want to throw another experimental drug at them, so the group of "untreated" might have been sicklier than the HCQ group.  My recollection is that this limitation was mentioned by the authors in the discussion of the study, but I'm not going to dig it up to check.

When you say that HCQ wasn't studied the same way as other global pandemic treatments, which pandemics were those?  1918 influenza?  19th century cholera?  I don't think we've had enough modern pandemics to compare.

This piece demonstrates much of what I've been saying about how politics and the media change the way "science" is conducted and published, not just how it is spoken about by the left-wing media. There is no way to look at the broader medical community's actions in relation to HCQ, from the FDA, to the premier medical journals; from state and Federal public health officials to private doctors and conclude that "The state of the information ecosystem is strong."
IMO this piece mostly demonstrates the need for concise writing.

The result of this debacle was to change how the public viewed medical experts, but scientists and doctors continued with their research and treatments based on their experiences and discussions with other professionals, not based on TV or twitter.

(And I was the one who mentioned Dr. Z.)

Offline biobook

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #132 on: July 01, 2021, 07:12:36 PM »
The French guy was branded eccentric before HCQ and a lunatic after.
The French guy seems to relish this characterization.

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #133 on: July 01, 2021, 08:03:44 PM »



You're far more knowledgeable than me on this subject, and I'll agree that the author clearly has biases that are quite clear. But I dare say your biases are over playing the essay's shortcomings and downplaying the issues it brings up.

The author clearly wasn't saying or even implying that Trump was qualified to give medical advice or prescribe medicine.

The timeline's importance as it pertains to this thread is more in the earlier stages, before more extensive studies had been done. The political reaction caused doctors to avoid prescribing it even if there was better evidence for HCQ than other treatments.

His mention of "experts" in quotes was to point out the exact opposite of what you're saying, anyone willing to crap on HCQ was used regardless of their true expertise.

His one mention of Fauci was not in regard to his expertise, but a legitimate critique of his downplaying HCQ and raising hopes of other treatments based on less evidence.

As for the flaws in the pro HCQ trials, he mentions numerous ones, and I'm sure he omitted some as well. The point was more that those flaws where magnified whereas by other treatments flaws were downplayed.

You are wrong about how science continued. Studies were stopped, the medical journals were tricked, and doctors didn't prescribe a potentially life saving treatment because of political reasons. A simple Google search will show you many scientists who lament how media does ruin the scientific method, it's hardly a claim being made by one DDFer based on an HCQ article.

I will agree with you that the is certainly a need for concise writing, and my post history is proof of that.

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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #134 on: July 01, 2021, 08:16:29 PM »
https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1410723110991536131

This is a perfect example of exactly how science has been mutilated by politics. Researcher proposes a reasonable theory about cross immunity to COVID from other viruses. Gets abused and actually is persuaded to change his views. Did the research anyways, and his initial theory is proven right. If he decides to end the study or didn’t start researching yet, we would be missing crucial truths about COVID.

Now if only someone can explain why he was abused 🤷
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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2021, 08:25:50 PM »
https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1410723110991536131

This is a perfect example of exactly how science has been mutilated by politics. Researcher proposes a reasonable theory about cross immunity to COVID from other viruses. Gets abused and actually is persuaded to change his views. Did the research anyways, and his initial theory is proven right. If he decides to end the study or didn’t start researching yet, we would be missing crucial truths about COVID.

Now if only someone can explain why he was abused 🤷

Why politics? He was abused because most of his peers thought his theory held no water. He prevailed. This isn't unique to Covid. Scientists bash other scientists' work and opinions all the time.
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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #136 on: July 01, 2021, 08:29:28 PM »
That isn’t the first ad hominem slur you’ve hurled that I don’t fully get why you’re slinging.



There was absolutely nothing at all ad hominem about this or any other comment I made in this thread. Everything was directly referring to the comment is was about.
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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #137 on: July 01, 2021, 08:35:57 PM »
Why politics? He was abused because most of his peers thought his theory held no water. He prevailed. This isn't unique to Covid. Scientists bash other scientists' work and opinions all the time.

Hindsight is 20-20. We clearly see now that their arguments were for unscientific purposes only, as his theory held water. There’s no reason a scientist should be abused if there’s scientific reason to believe something might be true, without any evidence against it. Disagree or bring evidence against it, but are to passionately abuse someone for no reason is criminal.

Politics doesn’t have to mean US politics. Any disagreements that’s external to science itself which is nothing more bickering. I believe he was massively abused because his theory might downplay the seriousness of COVID.
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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2021, 08:39:59 PM »
Hindsight is 20-20. We clearly see now that their arguments were for unscientific purposes only, as his theory held water. There’s no reason a scientist should be abused if there’s scientific reason to believe something might be true, without any evidence against it. Disagree or bring evidence against it, but are to passionately abuse someone for no reason is criminal.

Politics doesn’t have to mean US politics. Any disagreements that’s external to science itself which is nothing more bickering. I believe he was massively abused because his theory might downplay the seriousness of COVID.

I think your last sentence may be influencing your second sentence. Why do you say the arguments against him were unscientific? Him ultimately being right doesn't mean there was no science to back the opinion that he was wrong.
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Re: global warming- what's your take?
« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2021, 08:43:18 PM »
This is a perfect example of exactly how science has been mutilated by politics. Researcher proposes a reasonable theory about cross immunity to COVID from other viruses. Gets abused and actually is persuaded to change his views. Did the research anyways, and his initial theory is proven right. If he decides to end the study or didn’t start researching yet, we would be missing crucial truths about COVID.

Now if only someone can explain why he was abused 🤷
I suspect something was lost in translation from his native French, and that he meant more something along the lines of "my colleagues thought I was crazy".  He took their criticism seriously, but still continued his research, and found convincing evidence for his original ideas.  He was never in danger of having his research suppressed - He's a full professor, as well as Director of the Genetics Institute at University College London.