Author Topic: Chanukkah question  (Read 14394 times)

Offline Entrepreneur

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Chanukkah question
« on: December 22, 2016, 09:53:09 PM »
The gemara in Shabbos ask Mai Chanukkah after discussing several laws of lighting Chanukkah candles.  Why isn't it the first question before going into the specific laws? I would think we need to establish why we celebrate the holiday first.

Thanks

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2016, 10:35:17 PM »
The gemara in Shabbos ask Mai Chanukkah after discussing several laws of lighting Chanukkah candles.  Why isn't it the first question before going into the specific laws? I would think we need to establish why we celebrate the holiday first.

Thanks
Kasheh doesn't bother me..

Fakert, after learning and discussing the halochos of the mitzvos etc, IE the ikar of Chanukah, then it is the right time to ask btw what is this Chanukah about.

Offline LoLo

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2016, 10:40:02 PM »
Kasheh doesn't bother me..

Fakert, after learning and discussing the halochos of the mitzvos etc, IE the ikar of Chanukah, then it is the right time to ask btw what is this Chanukah about.
#DDFstyle

Offline Baruch

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2016, 10:41:06 PM »
The reason why the Gemara got involved in Chanukah in the first place, is because the gemara was previously discussing the laws of lighting Shabbos candles, and the Gemara gets involved with similar laws that shabbos candles have with Chanukah candles (the wicks and the fuel). The Gemara continues talking about the laws of lighting the Menorah, and since the Gemara was already talking about Chanukah, it was a great place to then discuss "mai chanukah".

It is very consistent with the normal way of the Gemara, all over.

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2016, 10:55:01 PM »
I have another question. Re the terutz on the B"Y question that they only used a little each night, and therefore there was a nes every night...

Why did they do this? Why didn't they have to use a full shiur on the first day?

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2016, 10:55:50 PM »
The reason why the Gemara got involved in Chanukah in the first place, is because the gemara was previously discussing the laws of lighting Shabbos candles, and the Gemara gets involved with similar laws that shabbos candles have with Chanukah candles (the wicks and the fuel). The Gemara continues talking about the laws of lighting the Menorah, and since the Gemara was already talking about Chanukah, it was a great place to then discuss "mai chanukah".

It is very consistent with the normal way of the Gemara, all over.

I understand. So why not ask the question before the gemara starts discussing about the core mitzvah and mehadrin and Bais Shamai and Bais Hillel. At that point it seems like the gemara is done discussing the wicks and on to a new topic.

Offline Bukboy

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 11:04:30 PM »
I have another question. Re the terutz on the B"Y question that they only used a little each night, and therefore there was a nes every night...

Why did they do this? Why didn't they have to use a full shiur on the first day?
And i have anothe one on the Kashua from the B"Y itself, He answers 3 terutzim on the kashua right? How did the B"Y learned in the kashua the story of the nes? Behechrach one of the terutzim oib ozoy what's the kashua?1

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 11:06:21 PM »
I have another question. Re the terutz on the B"Y question that they only used a little each night, and therefore there was a nes every night...

Why did they do this? Why didn't they have to use a full shiur on the first day?
There's no Din in a full Shiur it just has to be lit all the time.

Offline Bukboy

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 11:08:18 PM »
There's no Din in a full Shiur it just has to be lit all the time.
I believe he means that ein somchim al hanes

Offline Baruch

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 11:12:56 PM »
I understand. So why not ask the question before the gemara starts discussing about the core mitzvah and mehadrin and Bais Shamai and Bais Hillel. At that point it seems like the gemara is done discussing the wicks and on to a new topic.
The Gemara was already involved in the halachos of lighting the menorah, because "Kovsa zakuk lah" was  also relevant to the rules of the wicks and the fuel, so the Gemara continues to discuss the rules of lighting. Then the Gemara goes onto the discussion of "Mai Chanukah".

The Gemara is not organized in the same way the Rambam and the Tur were organized.

The Gemara is a collection of discussions of the Amaraim, organized around the mishnayos. There are some discussions of the Amarai'im that simply have no great place to put them. Such as many agados. But they have to be placed somewhere. Many times the Gemara will find any excuse to place them, such as the same Amora that said the last thing, said another thing totally irrelevant. (I believe that's why Brachos has the most Agada, because the first excuse the Gemara finds to place a discussion, it places it).

The Gemara is not usually concerned with placing these discussions, in a "foundations" first method. In many Perakim in Shas the most foundational points are found very deep into the perek. The Gemara's order is more based on, first expounding the Mishna, and then bringing discussions that are most similar to the last discussions.

I don't recall reading this anywhere, so I may be wrong. But this is what I believe to be true.

Offline shulem92

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2016, 11:14:29 PM »
I have another question. Re the terutz on the B"Y question that they only used a little each night, and therefore there was a nes every night...

Why did they do this? Why didn't they have to use a full shiur on the first day?
CMIIW but I always thought that terutz is that only ⅛ burned every night

Offline Baruch

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2016, 11:17:15 PM »
I have another question. Re the terutz on the B"Y question that they only used a little each night, and therefore there was a nes every night...

Why did they do this? Why didn't they have to use a full shiur on the first day?
IIRC, Rav Menachem Ziemba Hy"d has a 10 page answer to that question. (I think in the back of תוצאות חיים)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2016, 11:18:24 PM »
CMIIW but I always thought that terutz is that only ⅛ burned every night
+1 you're probably right. Someone told me the terutz the way I presented it earlier today, it didn't make sense..

Offline Baruch

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 11:23:12 PM »
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/wiki/index.php?title=%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3_%D7%A2%D7%9C_%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%94

הבית יוסף מביא שלושה תירוצים לקושיתו:

הכהנים חילקו את השמן לשמונה חלקים וכל לילה נתנו שמינית, ונעשה נס בכל לילה ולילה, שכמות שמן מעטה שאינה מספיקה אלא לחלק קטן מהלילה, בערה עד הבוקרוכך גם תירץ בתוספות הרא"ש (שם ד"ה ונעשה נס), בתירוצו הראשון..
רבים הקשו על תירוץ זה (מאירי שם סוף; מהר"ל, נר מצוה ד"ה ואם תאמר כיון שהיה; ועוד), שהרי יש חיוב לשים כמות שמן המספיקה עד הבוקר, כדברי הברייתא (פסחים נט. ועוד): "מערב ועד בקר - תן לה מִדָתַהּ שתהא דולקת מערב עד בוקר". וא"כ מוטב היה לקיים יום אחד כדין, מאשר לשים חצי שיעור בכל שמונת הימים.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2016, 11:24:14 PM »
The Gemara was already involved in the halachos of lighting the menorah, because "Kovsa zakuk lah" was  also relevant to the rules of the wicks and the fuel, so the Gemara continues to discuss the rules of lighting. Then the Gemara goes onto the discussion of "Mai Chanukah".

The Gemara is not organized in the same way the Rambam and the Tur were organized.

The Gemara is a collection of discussions of the Amaraim, organized around the mishnayos. There are some discussions of the Amarai'im that simply have no great place to put them. Such as many agados. But they have to be placed somewhere. Many times the Gemara will find any excuse to place them, such as the same Amora that said the last thing, said another thing totally irrelevant. (I believe that's why Brachos has the most Agada, because the first excuse the Gemara finds to place a discussion, it places it).

The Gemara is not usually concerned with placing these discussions, in a "foundations" first method. In many Perakim in Shas the most foundational points are found very deep into the perek. The Gemara's order is more based on, first expounding the Mishna, and then bringing discussions that are most similar to the last discussions.

I don't recall reading this anywhere, so I may be wrong. But this is what I believe to be true.
It is the classic derech hashas. Specifically here it is a direct continuation of a series of comparisons between shabbos lighting and other lighting's. First goes mikdash vs shabbos, then Chanukah vs shabbos.
To interrupt the flow with a sudden Mai Chanukah would be absolutely unprecedented.

Offline shulem92

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 11:24:30 PM »
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/wiki/index.php?title=%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3_%D7%A2%D7%9C_%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%94

הבית יוסף מביא שלושה תירוצים לקושיתו:

הכהנים חילקו את השמן לשמונה חלקים וכל לילה נתנו שמינית, ונעשה נס בכל לילה ולילה, שכמות שמן מעטה שאינה מספיקה אלא לחלק קטן מהלילה, בערה עד הבוקרוכך גם תירץ בתוספות הרא"ש (שם ד"ה ונעשה נס), בתירוצו הראשון..
רבים הקשו על תירוץ זה (מאירי שם סוף; מהר"ל, נר מצוה ד"ה ואם תאמר כיון שהיה; ועוד), שהרי יש חיוב לשים כמות שמן המספיקה עד הבוקר, כדברי הברייתא (פסחים נט. ועוד): "מערב ועד בקר - תן לה מִדָתַהּ שתהא דולקת מערב עד בוקר". וא"כ מוטב היה לקיים יום אחד כדין, מאשר לשים חצי שיעור בכל שמונת הימים.
I guess I was wrong...

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 11:25:55 PM »
There's no Din in a full Shiur it just has to be lit all the time.
There definitely a shiur..
I believe he means that ein somchim al hanes
That also..

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 11:27:06 PM »
http://www.yeshiva.org.il/wiki/index.php?title=%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3_%D7%A2%D7%9C_%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%94

הבית יוסף מביא שלושה תירוצים לקושיתו:

הכהנים חילקו את השמן לשמונה חלקים וכל לילה נתנו שמינית, ונעשה נס בכל לילה ולילה, שכמות שמן מעטה שאינה מספיקה אלא לחלק קטן מהלילה, בערה עד הבוקרוכך גם תירץ בתוספות הרא"ש (שם ד"ה ונעשה נס), בתירוצו הראשון..
רבים הקשו על תירוץ זה (מאירי שם סוף; מהר"ל, נר מצוה ד"ה ואם תאמר כיון שהיה; ועוד), שהרי יש חיוב לשים כמות שמן המספיקה עד הבוקר, כדברי הברייתא (פסחים נט. ועוד): "מערב ועד בקר - תן לה מִדָתַהּ שתהא דולקת מערב עד בוקר". וא"כ מוטב היה לקיים יום אחד כדין, מאשר לשים חצי שיעור בכל שמונת הימים.
So what's the answer? My kid asked me and I gotta say something....

Offline Entrepreneur

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 11:27:54 PM »
It is the classic derech hashas. Specifically here it is a direct continuation of a series of comparisons between shabbos lighting and other lighting's. First goes mikdash vs shabbos, then Chanukah vs shabbos.
To interrupt the flow with a sudden Mai Chanukah would be absolutely unprecedented.
I understand, but what flow would be broken if the gemarah asked Mai Chanukah before it discuss Tanu Rabanan Ner Ish Ubeyso...?

Offline Baruch

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Re: Chanukkah question
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2016, 11:28:00 PM »
I guess I was wrong...
maybe yeshiva.org is wrong, can someone find the lashon of the Bais Yosef, I can't find it on Google yet.