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Niagara Falls Master Thread Linky
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Trip Reports: @Yehuda's friend
Day Trip @bhys

Toronto:

The Jewish community is broken up in to three main areas
1. "Down South" which is in the area of Bathurst and Lawrence
2. Clanton Park which is a little further north around Bathurst and Sheppard
3. Thornhill which is even further north @ Clark and Bathurst

Downtown, without any traffic is 25 from down south, 30 minutes from clanton park and 35 minutes from Thornhill. Expect those numbers to almost double during rush hour.


Places to eat
There are a ton of fast food type options in the city. There are very few nice restaurants.

Here's COR's List http://www.cor.ca/establishments.html

Down South, Eglinton area, and Clanton Park area:
(See below for Thornhill)


Meat:

Marron Bistro
Meat - Available on UberEats
948 Eglinton Ave W, Toronto, ON M6C 2C5
Mixed reviews on DDF

Prime on Avenue
Steakhouse
Available on DoorDash

Aish Tanoor
The best Middle Eastern Laffa restaurant - Available on UberEats
994 Eglinton Ave. W.,
Toronto, ON M6C 2C5
Tel: (647) 352-5535

Wok & Bowl
Meat - Chinese
Located in the former Auleaf Cafe location
3023 Bathurst Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M6B 3B5
(416) 435-5678

Bubby's NY Diner
3030 Bathurst St
(416) 862-2435

Chicken Nest
3038 Bathurst St

Dr Laffa On The Go
3023 Bathurst St. (there's one almost up north and one down south on the east side of Bathurst, one block south of Lawrence)


Dairy:

Dr Laffa Bakery and Cafe almost up north
2 Champagne Drive Unit B6, Toronto, ON, M3J 3H7

Bistro Grande
1000 Eglinton Ave W, Toronto, ON M6C 2C5
(416) 782-3302
Nice Dairy place- pricey

The Inside Scoop
Ice cream store (Cholov Yisrael Available)
3685 Bathurst St, North York, ON M6A 2E6, Canada

Milk 'n Honey
3457 Bathurst Street
Good french onion soup, cheese blintzes...

Slice N Bites
Pizza, sushi, falafel, salads, etc.
3020 Bathurst St (West side of Bathurst, 1 block south of Lawrence)

Tov Li South
Pizza, falafel, pastas, salads, etc.
3519 Bathurst (between Lawrence and Wilson)

The Haymishe Bakery (now under COR)
Bakery with pizza and a small sitting area. People say the pizza is great (it's My Zaidy's Pizza)
3031 Bathurst St

Pizza Cafe
Pizza, falafel, salad bar
3774 Bathurst St. (north west corner of Bathurst and Wilson in plaza)
Must try the caramelized onion slice. Excellent service!!

Omni 2 - Jewels and Java
Dairy - Available on UberEats
2793 Bathurst St Toronto Moved- now located inside the Lawrence Allen Centre Mall at 700 Lawrence Ave W, North York, ON M6A 3B4

Bubby's Bagels
3035 Bathurst St (Bathurst & Lawrence)
Good breakfast/bagel selection. People say they make Toronto's only 'real' bagels.
A few bar stools on ground floor, lots of seating in basement.

Pantry
3456 Bathurst St (between Lawrence and Wilson)
Dairy - Available on UberEats
Dan's review.
(Takeout only now?)

3SK Cafe
1054 Eglinton Ave W
Small cafe with unique healthy homemade menu options

Surreal Sweets
3513 Bathurst St

Surreal Food Co.
973 Eglinton Ave W

Coming Soon:
Crema Café
3032 Bathurst


Thornhill
Meat:

Kapara
Great Moroccan style restaurant
7700 Bathurst St Unit 12   

Golden Chopsticks
Average chinese food
7000 Bathurst, Thornhill, ON L4J 7L1

Bali Laffa
7117 Bathurst St, Vaughan, ON L4J 2J6
Excellent Israeli grill


Howie T's
Burger joint
1 Promenade Cir, Thornhill, ON L4J 4P8, Canada

Sheli's Burgers & Fried Chicken
7241 Bathurst St.
Thornhill, ON, L4J 3W1
905-597-1984

Dr. Laffa
Shwarma joint. People in Toronto rave about it. Not sure why.
441 Clark Avenue West

Dairy:

D-lites
Dairy Cafe. Breakfast special is an outstanding value- also really good Sushi
441 Clark Ave W Vaughan, ON L4J 5K2

Cafe Sheli
Dairy Cafe- classic Jewish dairy place with a really large menu. 
Everything is good and not pricey
7700 Bathurst St, Vaughan, ON L4J 7Y3

La Briut Cafè
Kavkazi cuisine with a bar. Great vibes for breakfast, lunch or dinner. Notable item is Khachapuri
1118 Centre St Unit 1, Thornhill, ON L4J 7R9

Sips Coffee House
CY Coffee shop with pastries
441 Clark Ave W., Unit 13A, Thornhill, Ontario, L4J 6W8

My Zaidy's Pizza
441 Clark Ave W, Vaughan, ON L4J 5K2

Tov-Li Pizza
5982 Bathurst St, Toronto, ON M2R 1Z1

Top Slice (Thornhill Kosher Pizza) (formerly Yehudale's)
7241 Bathurst St, Thornhill, ON L4J 3W1

Centro Cafe
Pizza, falafel, salads
Located in the lower level of the Promenade Mall- 1 Promenade Cir, Thornhill, ON L4J 4P8

Closed Down:

Aroma Espresso Bar - (this is there only kosher location in Toronto)
3791-3793 Bathurst Street  (west side of of Bathurst one block north of Wilson)


King David Pizza
(three Locations)


Annona Restaurant at the Park Hyatt
Very nice restaurant. Takes over the regular restaurant in the Hyatt lobby on Thursday nights, once or twice a month.
Good food but very expensive ($125/person + tax and tip)
(Closed permanently?)

Windsor Arms Hotel kosher dining
Very Nice Great Reviews on DDF
Sunday-Thursday 5:30-10PM
Also very good food and much more reasonable at $75/person
(Closed permanently?)

Auleaf Cafe
Dairy - Available on UberEats
3023 Bathurst Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M6B 3B5
(416)783-2323


Gladstones Bistro
Steakhouse



Hotels

Park Hyatt Toronto
By no means a luxury hotel, but a good value for CC anniversary nights.
Located in mid-town, around a 20 minute drive (longer during evening rush hour) to the Jewish community @ Bathurst/Lawrence, a few minutes less than that to the restaurants on Eglinton.


Attractions

CN Tower
Toronto's iconic tower, was the tallest freestanding structure in the world from 1975-2007
Nice views, but only if it's a clear day. If it's overcast you'll be surrounded by clouds at the top and you won't be able to see too much.
At the top, there are indoor and outdoor observation decks and a glass floor.
Edgewalk at the CN Tower-
For ~$200 CDN you can walk out (harnessed) on a thin railing-less platform at 116 stories high.
Takes a few hours and is not cheap by any means, but could be cool.

Ripley's Aquarium
Downtown, right next to the CN Tower
288 Bremner Blvd Toronto, ON M5V 3L9
Excellent aquarium. Very expensive

Hockey Hall of Fame
Excellently done. Really cool to be able to touch the cup
Downtown, 30 Yonge St Toronto, ON M5E 1X8

Canada's Wonderland
Theme park (think six flags)
15 minutes north of Thornhill
https://www.canadaswonderland.com/
kosher food options at the park provided by Tov-Li which are available at the Backlot Café

ROM (Royal Ontario Museum
www.rom.on.ca/

Ontario science Centre
https://www.ontariosciencecentre.ca/

Centre Island and Centreville
Beautiful island a 5 minute ferry ride from downtown.
Plenty of grass and splash pads and a small amusement park for kids

Toronto zoo
25 minute drive from main areas. Very nice zoo. They have pandas on loan from China for the next few years

Woodbine (Fantasy fair)
500 Rexdale Blvd Etobicoke, ON M9W 6K5
Fun indoor amusement park for kids
Near the airport

Reptilia
What it sounds like
2501 Rutherford Rd Vaughan, ON L4K 2N6

Legoland
Don't waste your money

Bunch Of Fun Playland
Their food is Kosher

Farms & Zoos

DOWNEY’S FARM MARKET
13682 Heart Lake Rd N of Brampton
905-838-2990
Daily: 9am-6pm; Funland: Daily: 10am-5pm;
$7/admission, charged to funland play area and farm animals

EVERDALE ORGANIC FARM AND
ENVIRONMENTAL LEARNING CENTRE
5812 6th Line, Erin Township 401 W to Trafalgar Rd, N on Trafalgar to Hwy #7, W on #7 to Trafalgar Rd N again, Trafalgar N to Hillsburgh W on Wellington Rd #22, N onto 6th Line Erin Township to #5812
519-855-4859
Visit Everdale, bring a picnic, walk around and enjoy a day in the country.

FAR ENOUGH FARM
Toronto Island Park, near Centreville on Centre Island
416-392-2628
9am-3pm daily; Free, Ferry: $7/adult, $.3.50/child

FORSYTHE FAMILY FARMS
10539 Kennedy Rd, Unionville 1km N of Major
Mackenzie Dr
905-887-1087
9am-5pm; Summer Fun on The Farm:
$7/2hrs, $8/3hrs (booking required)
Pick-your-own crops, visit The Enchanted Forest and summer fun on the farm.

HIGH PARK ZOO
High Park, Deer Pen Rd, Near Grenadier Café
905-887-1087
Dawn-Dusk;

PUCK’S FARM
16540 11th Concession W on Hwy 9 to King
Con 11; turn left, heading S drive 15 miles
905-939-7036
Weekends & Holidays: 10am-5pm, call for weekday schedule; $10, under 2 free: includes pony & hayrides & activities

RIVERDALE FARM
201 Winchester St (E off Parliament)
416-392-6794
riverdale-farm
Daily: 9am-5pm; Free

SPRINGRIDGE FARM
7256 Bell School Line in Milton
905-878-4908
Daily: 9am-6pm; Fun Farm Yard: $5, weekend pony rides $3 Wagon rides, farm animals. giant sandbox, and straw bale jumping.

TORONTO ZOO
Hwy 401 on Meadowvale Rd N
416-392-5900
9am-7pm; $28/adults, $18/3-12yrs, Free/2yrs-, $10/parking

WHITTAMORE’S BERRY FARM
8100 Steeles Ave E, 6km E of Markham Rd
(Highway 48)
905-294-3275
9am-5pm; $8, $35/Season Pass
Farm yard activities, playhouses, farm animals, wagon rides and pick-your-own-crops.

BROOKS FARMS
122 Ashworth Rd, Mt Albert
905-473-3246
9am-4pm; $8/Barnyard Playland
Barnyard Playland, Farmer’s Market, Pickyour-own.

Activities on the Way from NY:
  • Krispy Kreme in Scranton - on Moosic Street, under KOA with supervision from local Scranton Rav - R' Fine, recommended by Rabbi Eidlitz from KosherQuest.com via email to @Yehuda
  • Corning Museum of Glass ($20) - large museum of varying glass displays and creations, glass blowing demonstrations, has high reviews although @Yehuda didn't think it was that amazing
  • Watkins Glen State Park (free, $8 parking) - hike in a gorge along several waterfalls, more of an upward step climb than a hike which is quite strenuous, @Yehuda recommends going 20 minutes in to see the first few falls then turning back, if you go the whole 1-1.5 hours you can wait for a shuttle school bus to take you back to the parking lot for $5 cash
  • Letchworth State Park - hot air balloons
  • Finger Lakes - can go on a boat cruise or just find a nice place to pull over for a good lunch spot, @Yehuda took Hwy 14, which runs alongside Seneca Lake and found a grassy area with benches.
  • Strong Museum of Play in Rochester ($15) - not exactly on the most direct route, but a fantastic, huge museum of toys and games (many of which you can play) for all ages
  • Howe Caverns ($25) - boat ride in a cave, but close to Albany, so not on a great route to Toronto
  • Destiny USA https://www.destinyusa.com/directory/entertainment in Syracuse NY is great place to stop for various indoor fun activities...The mall has an escape room, indoor ropes course, virtual reality, mirror maze, lazer tag, trampoline park, mini golf, Dave & Busters, WonderWorks museum/entertainment center and more...I found the prices to be quite reasonable.



« Last edited by Yehudaa on January 09, 2024, 12:51:17 PM »

Author Topic: Toronto Master Thread  (Read 592566 times)

Offline eis517

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1200 on: July 07, 2015, 09:04:38 PM »
It's the capital, so some history stuff to do there. I don't believe there is any kosher food.

there is a kosher bakery and kosher food in the JCC.

http://www.youngisrael.ottawa.on.ca/travelers-info

Offline moko

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1201 on: July 08, 2015, 08:30:23 PM »
I'm planning a Niagara/ Toronto trip for late July/August with 2 children (1 and 5). I have a rough itinerary planned and would appreciate some input from my fellow DDFr's. (I'll outline Niagara roughly but I'll save the details for the Niagara thread)
Wednesday 7/29: Depart Brooklyn  5 pm (not sure I'll drive all the way through or stop in the Finger lakes area for the night)
Thursday- Shabbos: Niagara Falls
Sunday: Depart in the AM for Toronto (here is where I could use some input)
               Do Downey's Farm sort of on the way to Toronto
Monday: Toronto Island's - Centreville , bike rental (maybe CN tower on the way back to the Hotel)
Tuesday: Toronto Zoo.
Wednesday: Ideas for the morning? Depart for Brooklyn in the early PM.
I'm planning on staying at the Hilton Suites Markham for under $100.
Based on my activities is this a reasonable location? It seems to be a 15 min. drive to Thornhill area shuls and restaurants.
Activities: Downey's Farm, Centerville/bike rental, Toronto Zoo, CN Tower, & ?.
I figure with the kids, Downeys Farm and Toronto Island will take the better part of a day each.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 08:45:23 PM by moko »

Offline eis517

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1202 on: July 08, 2015, 08:39:41 PM »
I'm planning a Niagara/ Toronto trip for late July/August with 2 children (1 and 5). I have a rough itinerary planned and would appreciate some input from my fellow DDFr's. (I'll outline Niagara roughly but I'll save the details for the Niagara thread)
Wednesday 7/29: Depart Brooklyn  5 pm (not sure I'll drive all the way through or stop in the Finger lakes area for the night)
Thursday- Shabbos: Niagara Falls
Sunday: Depart in the AM for Toronto (here is where I could use some input)
               Do Downey's Farm sort of on the way to Toronto
Tuesday: Toronto Island's - Centreville , bike rental (maybe CN tower on the way back to the Hotel)
Wednesday: Toronto Zoo. Depart for Brooklyn in the PM.
I'm planning on staying at the Hilton Suites Markham for under $100.
Based on my activities is this a reasonable location? It seems to be a 15 min. drive to Thornhill area shuls and restaurants.
Activities: Downey's Farm, Centerville/bike rental, Toronto Zoo, CN Tower, & ?.
I figure with the kids, Downeys Farm and Toronto Island will take the better part of a day each.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Welcome to TO!

Here are my thoughts:

I think you skipped Monday.

Centerville can be an all day thing. Just waiting for the ferry could be 30 min.

Markham is close enough to the shuls and restaurants, so that shouldn't be a problem. However, traffic to downtown spots, like Centreville and CN tower could be an issue. Although there will not be any Pan Am or Para Pan Am games then, traffic is so screwed up from those events, that it is worse than normal.

I have never been to Downeys farm, but the zoo is also an all day thing. There is an awesome splash pad, so bring bathing suits for you/kids.

Let me know if you have any other questions.


Offline moko

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1203 on: July 08, 2015, 08:48:05 PM »
Welcome to TO!

Here are my thoughts:

I think you skipped Monday.

Centerville can be an all day thing. Just waiting for the ferry could be 30 min.

Markham is close enough to the shuls and restaurants, so that shouldn't be a problem. However, traffic to downtown spots, like Centreville and CN tower could be an issue. Although there will not be any Pan Am or Para Pan Am games then, traffic is so screwed up from those events, that it is worse than normal.

I have never been to Downeys farm, but the zoo is also an all day thing. There is an awesome splash pad, so bring bathing suits for you/kids.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
Fixed.
What's the parking situation at the ferry?


Offline Chuck2

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1204 on: July 08, 2015, 09:02:51 PM »
I'm planning a Niagara/ Toronto trip for late July/August with 2 children (1 and 5). I have a rough itinerary planned and would appreciate some input from my fellow DDFr's. (I'll outline Niagara roughly but I'll save the details for the Niagara thread)
Wednesday 7/29: Depart Brooklyn  5 pm (not sure I'll drive all the way through or stop in the Finger lakes area for the night)
Thursday- Shabbos: Niagara Falls
Sunday: Depart in the AM for Toronto (here is where I could use some input)
               Do Downey's Farm sort of on the way to Toronto
Monday: Toronto Island's - Centreville , bike rental (maybe CN tower on the way back to the Hotel)
Tuesday: Toronto Zoo.
Wednesday: Ideas for the morning? Depart for Brooklyn in the early PM.
I'm planning on staying at the Hilton Suites Markham for under $100.
Based on my activities is this a reasonable location? It seems to be a 15 min. drive to Thornhill area shuls and restaurants.
Activities: Downey's Farm, Centerville/bike rental, Toronto Zoo, CN Tower, & ?.
I figure with the kids, Downeys Farm and Toronto Island will take the better part of a day each.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
go to the steamwhistle factory after the CN Tower for an Ice cold beer
:-)

Offline tageed-lee

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1205 on: July 08, 2015, 09:53:17 PM »
go to the steamwhistle factory after the CN Tower for an Ice cold beer

And then go to the Aquarium after that... I loved it... Its an incredible aquarium even for the price....

Offline Chuck2

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1206 on: July 08, 2015, 09:59:35 PM »
And then go to the Aquarium after that... I loved it... Its an incredible aquarium even for the price....
+1 the Aquarium is a must even if you see the lines down the block it moves and worth the wait
:-)

Offline eis517

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1207 on: July 08, 2015, 10:04:25 PM »
Fixed.
What's the parking situation at the ferry?

I didn't see any street parking. There are a few lots- I think parking was like 20-25 for the day.

For Wednesday, you can do the Science Centre or Aquirium. Since those are both indoors, you might want to have one of those as an alternate if there is rain one of the other days

Offline am7734

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1208 on: July 08, 2015, 11:14:59 PM »
Although there will not be any Pan Am or Para Pan Am games then, traffic is so screwed up from those events, that it is worse than normal.

The temporary HOV lanes on the QEW and 427 are a lifesaver though (assuming you have 3+)...

n/a so much for op though
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 11:21:06 PM by am7734 »

Offline moko

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1209 on: July 08, 2015, 11:54:11 PM »
Thanx for the info
The temporary HOV lanes on the QEW and 427 are a lifesaver though (assuming you have 3+)...

n/a so much for op though

will have 3 plus. Are the roads well marked in terms of HOV and so forth?

Offline am7734

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1210 on: July 08, 2015, 11:58:47 PM »
Thanx for the infowill have 3 plus. Are the roads well marked in terms of HOV and so forth?

Yes, in english and french ;)

Idk if the gardiner or dvp have it though

But for me going from bathurst/lawrence to Burlington area a few times last week, the HOVs were great, actually wished the 401 had as well (besides the collectors and express, which were both pretty heavy, and seem to be more and more consistently so)

Also don't remember until when they are in effect...

Offline moko

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1211 on: July 09, 2015, 12:07:04 AM »
Does EZ pass work in Canada? if not do I need canadian change to pay tolls?
Where is the best place to change money?

Offline am7734

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1212 on: July 09, 2015, 12:14:01 AM »
Does EZ pass work in Canada? if not do I need canadian change to pay tolls?
Where is the best place to change money?

The Lewiston-Queenston Bridge  is $3.25  and they accept ezpass... (dont have info on the other crossings, sorry) beyond that the only tolls im aware of is the 407ETR which utilizes a special transponder or pics of ur plates, I have no idea about the rates

Offline yudamaan

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1213 on: July 09, 2015, 12:19:55 AM »
Does EZ pass work in Canada? if not do I need canadian change to pay tolls?
Where is the best place to change money?
no does not work in Canada, with one exception when crossing into Canada over the rainbow bridge you can pay with EZ pass, but you can use either currency when crossing over by the other bridges

Offline efflpetzel

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1214 on: July 09, 2015, 01:48:53 AM »

I'm planning a Niagara/ Toronto trip for late July/August with 2 children (1 and 5). I have a rough itinerary planned and would appreciate some input from my fellow DDFr's. (I'll outline Niagara roughly but I'll save the details for the Niagara thread)
Wednesday 7/29: Depart Brooklyn  5 pm (not sure I'll drive all the way through or stop in the Finger lakes area for the night)
Thursday- Shabbos: Niagara Falls
Sunday: Depart in the AM for Toronto (here is where I could use some input)
               Do Downey's Farm sort of on the way to Toronto
Monday: Toronto Island's - Centreville , bike rental (maybe CN tower on the way back to the Hotel)
Tuesday: Toronto Zoo.
Wednesday: Ideas for the morning? Depart for Brooklyn in the early PM.
I'm planning on staying at the Hilton Suites Markham for under $100.
Based on my activities is this a reasonable location? It seems to be a 15 min. drive to Thornhill area shuls and restaurants.
Activities: Downey's Farm, Centerville/bike rental, Toronto Zoo, CN Tower, & ?.
I figure with the kids, Downeys Farm and Toronto Island will take the better part of a day each.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
i'd squeeze in the African Lion Safari,
it's a fantastic place, great for the kids

Offline Ergel

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1215 on: July 12, 2015, 10:15:26 AM »
If you take the 407, be prepared from some sticker shock when you get your bill. It is insanely expensive, especially if you don't have a transponder (which you won't). They charge you ~$3.25 just for getting on without a transponder. After that, depending on time of day, it's about $.30/KM
Although the 25% discount because of the weak CAD may make it more palatable.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1216 on: July 12, 2015, 10:18:01 AM »
i'd squeeze in the African Lion Safari,
it's a fantastic place, great for the kids
Heard great things about the Safari, have not been as of yet.
For Wednesday morning, you could also try Kidstown. I've never been but it's a free water park run by the city.
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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1217 on: July 12, 2015, 10:19:08 AM »
Daily rates for valet parking at the airport went up to $40 effective July 6.
The new price makes it prohibitively expensive. Not even worth it for a 2 day trip anymore. So long valet parking, it was nice while it lasted.
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Dan

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1218 on: July 12, 2015, 10:26:44 AM »
If you take the 407, be prepared from some sticker shock when you get your bill. It is insanely expensive, especially if you don't have a transponder (which you won't). They charge you ~$3.25 just for getting on without a transponder. After that, depending on time of day, it's about $.30/KM
Although the 25% discount because of the weak CAD may make it more palatable.
We used it once last year when driving back from the Lion Safari, saved 30-45 minutes of traffic due to an accident on the 401, wound up costing $15USD.
I had estimated it would cost $8USD from their site, I guess the markup was due to the lack of a transponder?

Expensive, but worth it with kids when the alternate route is significantly longer.
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Offline Ergel

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Re: Toronto Master Thread
« Reply #1219 on: July 12, 2015, 11:00:45 AM »
We used it once last year when driving back from the Lion Safari, saved 30-45 minutes of traffic due to an accident on the 401, wound up costing $15USD.
I had estimated it would cost $8USD from their site, I guess the markup was due to the lack of a transponder?

Expensive, but worth it with kids when the alternate route is significantly longer.
Video toll (no transponder) is $4CAD. The rest of the markup would probably be because of the time of day (the rate vary from $.19/KM to $.33/KM depending on day/night weekend/weekday rush-hour/non-rush-hour). And you probably left out the $.90CAD that they charge everyone for getting on the road
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