Author Topic: Keeping Up With The Kushners  (Read 114835 times)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #240 on: January 24, 2017, 06:43:24 AM »
I don't think we would be having this discussion if there was an appropriate description that we would use rather than lumping everything together as orthodox. We have "chassidish, ultra orthodox, etc. why not have a term " Culturally Orthodox Jews" or the like which would be an accurate description of those who have an affinity and identify with orthodox Jewishness on a cultural level while not yet being 100% on board in practice. I think this would eliminate a lot of the confusion and murkiness. And, let me say, I am really proud and excited that we have a wonderful Culturally Orthodox Jewish couple in Washington!
It's called conservative. Now they call it open orthodox. It's all the same.

Basically culturally orthodox is:observe Jewish holidays and traditions with all the trimmings, but not bound to any real rules or halacha. - these are flexible depending on your needs. You just need to author a "teshuva" documenting the "need" that required a "heter".

מי בקש מכם זאת.......

Offline as2

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #241 on: January 24, 2017, 07:54:57 AM »
It's called conservative. Now they call it open orthodox. It's all the same.

Basically culturally orthodox is:observe Jewish holidays and traditions with all the trimmings, but not bound to any real rules or halacha. - these are flexible depending on your needs. You just need to author a "teshuva" documenting the "need" that required a "heter".

מי בקש מכם זאת.......
Sounds more like Christianity
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Offline JTZ

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #242 on: January 24, 2017, 07:57:20 AM »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline as2

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #243 on: January 24, 2017, 07:58:57 AM »
>:( >:( >:(
It was not meant as a derogatory statement about Christianity, I was merely saying it sounded more like it than Judaism
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #244 on: January 24, 2017, 08:01:27 AM »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline JTZ

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #245 on: January 24, 2017, 08:02:32 AM »
It was not meant as a derogatory statement about Christianity, I was merely saying it sounded more like it than Judaism
Reading this thread I would not know if I was on a Catholic site or a Jewish site. Talk about deja vu.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline as2

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #246 on: January 24, 2017, 08:11:28 AM »
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline yzj

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #247 on: January 24, 2017, 09:22:38 AM »
It's called conservative. Now they call it open orthodox. It's all the same.

Basically culturally orthodox is:observe Jewish holidays and traditions with all the trimmings, but not bound to any real rules or halacha. - these are flexible depending on your needs. You just need to author a "teshuva" documenting the "need" that required a "heter".

מי בקש מכם זאת.......
But that is the point. There needs to be a name that is instantly self defining rather than some hybrid Orthodox term that is murky and can be confused with full practicing Orthodox Jews. It would be much better if these groups didn't feel the need to use the term Orthodox at all but given the fact that they do use the term and that this tends to lead to "well if they say they are Orthodox why do they do xyz", the term Culturally Orthodox would eliminate this problem. This does not mean that it would have any religious significance from an orthodox perspective, it would just be a functionally descriptive term.

Offline Yammer

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #248 on: January 24, 2017, 09:57:31 AM »
But that is the point. There needs to be a name that is instantly self defining rather than some hybrid Orthodox term that is murky and can be confused with full practicing Orthodox Jews. It would be much better if these groups didn't feel the need to use the term Orthodox at all but given the fact that they do use the term and that this tends to lead to "well if they say they are Orthodox why do they do xyz", the term Culturally Orthodox would eliminate this problem. This does not mean that it would have any religious significance from an orthodox perspective, it would just be a functionally descriptive term.
True. But groups like open orthodoxy don't want to change their official affiliation. It would turn off many constituents that would never go along with a non Orthodox group.

Offline yzj

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #249 on: January 24, 2017, 10:11:29 AM »
True. But groups like open orthodoxy don't want to change their official affiliation. It would turn off many constituents that would never go along with a non Orthodox group.
I agree with you. I do think that even if just the Orthodox Jews themselves started to use that term to describe Open Orthodoxy and the like it would have a significant impact. It concisely describes the Orthodox view of these movements in two words without having to give a long speech to differentiate between the movements that is often lost on the non observant listener. At the very least it would define those movements for ourselves, which is obviously needed as evidenced by the confusion expressed by Orthodox Jews over the events in Washington these past few days.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #250 on: January 24, 2017, 04:14:09 PM »
We all do aveiros, so precisely where do we draw the line?

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #251 on: January 24, 2017, 04:25:16 PM »
We all do aveiros, so precisely where do we draw the line?
Firstly, let's try to use the Torah method and say that we aren't perfect in keeping all mitzvos.

The line is drawn when a person finds justification for acting against halacha, or says that it is right to do so.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Redbull3

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #252 on: January 24, 2017, 05:03:51 PM »
We all do aveiros, so precisely where do we draw the line?
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #253 on: January 24, 2017, 05:16:54 PM »
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.
Firstly, let's try to use the Torah method and say that we aren't perfect in keeping all mitzvos.

The line is drawn when a person finds justification for acting against halacha, or says that it is right to do so.
to put it in other words: none of us is perfect, but the goalposts of Halachah don't move. driving to shul on shabbos doesn't make you conservative. allowing it does

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #254 on: January 24, 2017, 05:18:04 PM »
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.
No. There are transgressions, and then there are systemic disregards of the halacha system.

Chalking up eating in a shell fish restaurant and riding a car to church on shabbos as "avairos that we all do" is disingenuous and wrong.

This couple is a perfect case study of everything that is wrong the the left wing of modern orthodoxy today.

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #255 on: January 24, 2017, 05:20:46 PM »
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.

Are we entitled to criticize movements that claim some things are not aveiros, even though we are doing aveiros, but at least admit it and hopefully want to improve?

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #256 on: January 24, 2017, 05:24:26 PM »
This couple is a perfect case study of everything that is wrong the the left wing of modern orthodoxy today.

We need to be clear that it not them. Its their rabbi's. If not the rabbis some would identify as  non-orthodox or mesorati and some would keep much more.

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #257 on: January 24, 2017, 05:26:32 PM »
If you poll non-shomer-shabbos Israelis (that do have some religious background, as opposed to 100% תינוקות שנשבו who know a nothing, or close to nothing about יידישקייט) if they are reform, conservative, or just non-observant, I would guess that an overwhelming majority would answer non-observant (לא-דתי).

However, in America I have heard of people being very religiously conservative, or reform.

Do you see the difference? The former say, I don't adhere to religious laws. The latter say, I am changing the religious laws to suit me. I define the religion!
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Dan

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #258 on: January 24, 2017, 05:28:05 PM »
If you poll non-shomer-shabbos Israelis (that do have some religious background, as opposed to 100% תינוקות שנשבו who know a nothing, or close to nothing about יידישקייט) if they are reform, conservative, or just non-observant, I would guess that an overwhelming majority would answer non-observant (לא-דתי).

However, in America I have heard of people being very religiously conservative, or reform.

Do you see the difference? The former say, I don't adhere to religious laws. The latter say, I am changing the religious laws to suit me. I define the religion!
It's not just Israel. It's like that in many countries.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #259 on: January 24, 2017, 05:28:44 PM »


Firstly, let's try to use the Torah method and say that we aren't perfect in keeping all mitzvos.

The line is drawn when a person finds justification for acting against halacha, or says that it is right to do so.

Those two are different.