Author Topic: Keeping Up With The Kushners  (Read 75773 times)

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #270 on: January 24, 2017, 05:38:58 PM »
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).
It seems like the person you're referring to struggles with his yetzer hora, but doesn't claim eating treif is okay. He can then be considered frum.

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #271 on: January 24, 2017, 05:42:18 PM »
What's your source for that line? I would lose a halachic debate with anyone here, but is there a question that they possible did a d'oraisa, if so which one, or are we only concerned with d'rabanan of ameera l'akum? To me, that's an insane line to call someone not frum, for a one time d'rabanan.
I think being mechallel Shabbos d'rabbonon might be over the line, but could be wrong. I'll try to research later.

I don't know if "one time" makes a difference if it's b'farhesya. The fact that there's a claimed heter might make it not b'farhesya.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #272 on: January 24, 2017, 05:42:26 PM »
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).
Why would anyone call him "conservative". He is obviously a תינוק שנשבה and is growing in his yiddishkeit as he is learning. Who knows, he might even get you to daven daily with a minyan and have daily learning with him :)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #273 on: January 24, 2017, 06:00:15 PM »
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).

Who's wine is "yayen nesech"?

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #274 on: January 24, 2017, 06:07:09 PM »
Who's wine is "yayen nesech"?
Stam yeynam, but yes.

Offline yzj

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #275 on: January 24, 2017, 06:10:39 PM »
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.

So you're orthodox and they're something less because your sins are outside the realms of shabbas and kosher and sitting in a church? Why are those realms the deciding factors for you in this label system of yours? Aren't all d'oraisas equal to each other, and same with all d'rabanans?
This is a really tough one. If someone doesn't cover their hair or wear pants does this make them non Orthodox? I don't think so. Certainly all of us make mistakes on a regular basis with lashon hora, and a myriad of other aveiros but we are either A) ignorant of some of the finer details of Halacha or B) we are human and mess up but essentially as long as one believes in following Halacha and aknowledges the authority of the gedolim and poskim one is orthodox. Actually all aveiros are not created equal as are discussed in the various halachos of mumar. There are certain situations such as one knowingly doing specific aveiros when there isn't even an incentive to do so or in a very open and brazen manor or in some cases aveiros having to do with Shabbos or avoda zora that would reflect on ones status as an Orthodox Jew. Not exactly analogous, but I think we would all understand that one who does not wear a kippa (though he might very well be orthodox) would be making a statement that is of more significance than one who sorts cutlery on Shabbos despite the latter being a dioraisa and the former possibly not even being dirabonon.The problems start when one (or ones rabbi) views Halacha as fungible and all the Halachic authorities as out of touch and irrelevant. At that point it would seem that one has crossed the line and would no longer be considered orthodox. We should certainly accept those who are culturally orthodox with love and patience and understanding, and hope that they will grow in their spiritual journey, just as we would like to grow beyond many of the things that we are deficient in as you pointed out, but it is unfair and unhealthy to erase all labels and thereby blur the lines for ourselves in what is considered normative Orthodox observance.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 06:14:47 PM by yzj »

Offline FlyFirst

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #276 on: January 24, 2017, 06:13:05 PM »
Whofff 19 pages about the Kushners.. A I care is if they had Gefilta fish and tomato dip Friday night in the WH

Offline yitrap

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #277 on: January 24, 2017, 08:32:27 PM »
So lets see if I have this right.
1 - She is either a Jew or not. No half way on this.
2 - If she is not a Jew then what she does over Shabbos doesn't matter.
3 - If she is a Jew then no matter what she did over Shabbos does not change the fact she is a Jew.

So all this about what she did or didn't do over Shabbos is a smokescreen. This is really about if you accept her conversion as legit.

If a non Jew keeps Shabbos that is actually an issue, just saying.

Offline yitrap

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #278 on: January 24, 2017, 08:33:56 PM »


מי בקש מכם זאת.......
מי בקש זאת מכם
Ftfy.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #279 on: January 24, 2017, 08:35:40 PM »
מי בקש זאת מכם
Ftfy.
מידכם
Ftfy!

Offline yitrap

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #280 on: January 24, 2017, 08:36:04 PM »

Offline JTZ

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #281 on: January 25, 2017, 12:56:57 AM »
If a non Jew keeps Shabbos that is actually an issue, just saying.
What's the issue?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online MeirS

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #282 on: January 25, 2017, 01:02:33 AM »
What's the issue?
In short, the Torah (I believe it's brought in the Talmud) prohibits a non Jew From keeping Shabbos.

Offline yitrap

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Offline JTZ

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Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #284 on: January 25, 2017, 01:30:38 AM »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(