Author Topic: Keeping Up With The Kushners  (Read 226022 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7711
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #260 on: January 24, 2017, 05:28:57 PM »
We need to be clear that it not them. Its their rabbi's. If not the rabbis some would identify as  non-orthodox or mesorati and some would keep much more.
Which is why some people (correctly IMHO) say that the essence of the "who is a jew" is actually "who is a Rabbi".
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #261 on: January 24, 2017, 05:30:44 PM »
No. There are transgressions, and then there are systemic disregards of the halacha system.

Chalking up eating in a shell fish restaurant and riding a car to church on shabbos as "avairos that we all do" is disingenuous and wrong.

This couple is a perfect case study of everything that is wrong the the left wing of modern orthodoxy today.
So you're orthodox and they're something less because your sins are outside the realms of shabbas and kosher and sitting in a church? Why are those realms the deciding factors for you in this label system of yours? Aren't all d'oraisas equal to each other, and same with all d'rabanans?

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 535
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #262 on: January 24, 2017, 05:33:17 PM »
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.
Can you take back a like (or two)?

I'm not saying there are no lines, I am just unconvinced that the Kushners have crossed them to point of not being frum.

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 535
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #263 on: January 24, 2017, 05:34:52 PM »
No. There are transgressions, and then there are systemic disregards of the halacha system.

Chalking up eating in a shell fish restaurant and riding a car to church on shabbos as "avairos that we all do" is disingenuous and wrong.

This couple is a perfect case study of everything that is wrong the the left wing of modern orthodoxy today.
If that's something they say is okay to do, you're right. If they gave into their yetzer hora, then I don't think so.

Offline yuneeq

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 8611
  • Total likes: 3999
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: NJ
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #264 on: January 24, 2017, 05:35:14 PM »
So you're orthodox and they're something less because your sins are outside the realms of shabbas and kosher and sitting in a church? Why are those realms the deciding factors for you in this label system of yours? Aren't all d'oraisas equal to each other, and same with all d'rabanans?

You keep ignoring the simple answer to all your questions:

The line is drawn when a person finds justification for acting against halacha, or says that it is right to do so.
Visibly Jewish

Online Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #265 on: January 24, 2017, 05:35:38 PM »
If you poll non-shomer-shabbos Israelis (that do have some religious background, as opposed to 100% תינוקות שנשבו who know a nothing, or close to nothing about יידישקייט) if they are reform, conservative, or just non-observant, I would guess that an overwhelming majority would answer non-observant (לא-דתי).

However, in America I have heard of people being very religiously conservative, or reform.

Do you see the difference? The former say, I don't adhere to religious laws. The latter say, I am changing the religious laws to suit me. I define the religion!
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7711
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #266 on: January 24, 2017, 05:36:19 PM »
It's not just Israel. It's like that in many countries.
I bring Israel as an example, because the percentage of Jews who identify as Conservative or Reform is probably a rounding error there.

I refrain from using the common Israeli term חילוני as every Yid (according to Halacha) is part of גוי קדוש
But if you hone the question further, and ask what is it that they don't observe, it will be Torah Judaism (or as it was called in arguments against Karaites - Rabbinical Judaism) and not any other flavor or form that showed up in recent (or not so recent) history. They see those as man made creations, which serve a cultural purpose at best (which might be why they are so few amongst Israelis, because they have Israeli culture as the alternative).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 535
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #267 on: January 24, 2017, 05:36:25 PM »
So you're orthodox and they're something less because your sins are outside the realms of shabbas and kosher and sitting in a church? Why are those realms the deciding factors for you in this label system of yours? Aren't all d'oraisas equal to each other, and same with all d'rabanans?
They're not equal; Shabbos is a defining line.

They probably believe they got a real heter, so I don't know that they're considered mechallel Shabbos b'farhesya.

Online Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #268 on: January 24, 2017, 05:37:06 PM »
You keep ignoring the simple answer to all your questions:
Not simple at all. I don't know what that means, "justify" it to myself. I justify all my actions to myself. No one would do something they truly thought was tremendously wrong, even a murderer. Unless he had like intense regret afterword in which case he's unlikely to repeat the action.

Online Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3492
  • Total likes: 417
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Programs: Blocked By @NeriaKraus
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #269 on: January 24, 2017, 05:38:30 PM »
They're not equal; Shabbos is a defining line.

They probably believe they got a real heter, so I don't know that they're considered mechallel Shabbos b'farhesya.
What's your source for that line? I would lose a halachic debate with anyone here, but is there a question that they possible did a d'oraisa, if so which one, or are we only concerned with d'rabanan of ameera l'akum? To me, that's an insane line to call someone not frum, for a one time d'rabanan.

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 535
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #270 on: January 24, 2017, 05:38:58 PM »
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).
It seems like the person you're referring to struggles with his yetzer hora, but doesn't claim eating treif is okay. He can then be considered frum.

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 535
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #271 on: January 24, 2017, 05:42:18 PM »
What's your source for that line? I would lose a halachic debate with anyone here, but is there a question that they possible did a d'oraisa, if so which one, or are we only concerned with d'rabanan of ameera l'akum? To me, that's an insane line to call someone not frum, for a one time d'rabanan.
I think being mechallel Shabbos d'rabbonon might be over the line, but could be wrong. I'll try to research later.

I don't know if "one time" makes a difference if it's b'farhesya. The fact that there's a claimed heter might make it not b'farhesya.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 15618
  • Total likes: 7711
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 19
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
  • Programs: בשורת הגאולה. From Exile to Redemption. GIYF. AAdvantage Executive PlatinumŽ
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #272 on: January 24, 2017, 05:42:26 PM »
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).
Why would anyone call him "conservative". He is obviously a תינוק שנשבה and is growing in his yiddishkeit as he is learning. Who knows, he might even get you to daven daily with a minyan and have daily learning with him :)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline mgarfin

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 2566
  • Total likes: 294
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #273 on: January 24, 2017, 06:00:15 PM »
Idk how much you guys "get out there" in the secular world but here's a story for you, I had a coworker a few years ago I became friends with who ate dairy out and his family didn't keep shabbas at all growing up. While in NYU he met a Rabbi that he's still in touch with this to this day, drives out weekly at night to learn with him. As we chatted more and more, he made strides in eating out less, fasted with me whenever I told him it was a fast day, and just in general had many good conversations about Jewish philosophy. God plays a big part in his life, he's doing his best, and it made me realize how much I took my "head start" for granted. Some of you would call him conservative, to me he's way frummer and more genuine than myself, who you would probably call "modern orthodox" if you saw my spec sheet (I keep shabbas, kosher, but I'm not perfect and don't daven with a minyan except on shabbas, I don't learn enough and I grew up in JDS system with 0 excuse).

Who's wine is "yayen nesech"?

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 535
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #274 on: January 24, 2017, 06:07:09 PM »
Who's wine is "yayen nesech"?
Stam yeynam, but yes.

Offline yzj

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2012
  • Posts: 632
  • Total likes: 373
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: usa
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #275 on: January 24, 2017, 06:10:39 PM »
I'm so glad a DDF glitch let me like your post twice, ha. I think we judge ourselves favorably. When it's our aveiros, we are orthodox people who are trying. When it's someone else with specific aveiros, they are "conservatives" or reform or open orthodox etc. When it's us and loshon hora/v'havta lirayacha kamocha/being careful about treating converts as the torah reminds us myriad times, eh no big deal, we're orthodox. But if uncle saul drives to shul on shabbas, he's conservative.

I say we do away with all the other labels and look to halacha. There are halachic jews, and non jews. There is no 3rd status. Granted, there are special laws to treat kohanim, levi'im, converts, elders, rabbis, and maybe I as missing a few. Let's stop with ALL the other labels.

So you're orthodox and they're something less because your sins are outside the realms of shabbas and kosher and sitting in a church? Why are those realms the deciding factors for you in this label system of yours? Aren't all d'oraisas equal to each other, and same with all d'rabanans?
This is a really tough one. If someone doesn't cover their hair or wear pants does this make them non Orthodox? I don't think so. Certainly all of us make mistakes on a regular basis with lashon hora, and a myriad of other aveiros but we are either A) ignorant of some of the finer details of Halacha or B) we are human and mess up but essentially as long as one believes in following Halacha and aknowledges the authority of the gedolim and poskim one is orthodox. Actually all aveiros are not created equal as are discussed in the various halachos of mumar. There are certain situations such as one knowingly doing specific aveiros when there isn't even an incentive to do so or in a very open and brazen manor or in some cases aveiros having to do with Shabbos or avoda zora that would reflect on ones status as an Orthodox Jew. Not exactly analogous, but I think we would all understand that one who does not wear a kippa (though he might very well be orthodox) would be making a statement that is of more significance than one who sorts cutlery on Shabbos despite the latter being a dioraisa and the former possibly not even being dirabonon.The problems start when one (or ones rabbi) views Halacha as fungible and all the Halachic authorities as out of touch and irrelevant. At that point it would seem that one has crossed the line and would no longer be considered orthodox. We should certainly accept those who are culturally orthodox with love and patience and understanding, and hope that they will grow in their spiritual journey, just as we would like to grow beyond many of the things that we are deficient in as you pointed out, but it is unfair and unhealthy to erase all labels and thereby blur the lines for ourselves in what is considered normative Orthodox observance.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 06:14:47 PM by yzj »

Offline FlyFirst

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 491
  • Total likes: 5
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: NY
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #276 on: January 24, 2017, 06:13:05 PM »
Whofff 19 pages about the Kushners.. A I care is if they had Gefilta fish and tomato dip Friday night in the WH

Offline yitrap

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 3288
  • Total likes: 55
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #277 on: January 24, 2017, 08:32:27 PM »
So lets see if I have this right.
1 - She is either a Jew or not. No half way on this.
2 - If she is not a Jew then what she does over Shabbos doesn't matter.
3 - If she is a Jew then no matter what she did over Shabbos does not change the fact she is a Jew.

So all this about what she did or didn't do over Shabbos is a smokescreen. This is really about if you accept her conversion as legit.

If a non Jew keeps Shabbos that is actually an issue, just saying.

Offline yitrap

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 3288
  • Total likes: 55
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #278 on: January 24, 2017, 08:33:56 PM »


מי בקש מכם זאת.......
מי בקש זאת מכם
Ftfy.

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7355
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Keeping Up With The Kushners
« Reply #279 on: January 24, 2017, 08:35:40 PM »
מי בקש זאת מכם
Ftfy.
מידכם
Ftfy!