Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 16185 times)

Offline wayfe

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2017, 08:44:46 AM »
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:00:51 AM by wayfe »
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2017, 09:04:57 AM »
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.

Wow!  +1

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2017, 10:49:57 AM »
@JTZ,
I know it is only a stupid like button but I never planned on using it. I did this time and never will again. Not only do I agree with what you said I also understand it completely. I know this is only JS but I should have never responded in the first place to the OP. If I was the OP I would ask to have this thread deleted. For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer. I am impressed you would take the time to write such an eloquent response.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Sport

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2017, 10:52:26 AM »
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
While I do agree to the general sentiment that jewish law need not fit in with "modern" ethics, I disagree with some of your points made in this post. All mitzvos are meant to refine our charachter and make us more like god. Yes, there are some that we may not understand at all or fully how they do make us better people. However, there are many that are intuitive in how they improve us, to the extent that if there was no torah we would still practice then. I believe that if we approach these mitzvos from the perspective that we only practice them becuase god say so and they dont have any reasoning behind them they will have minimul affect on improving us. Yes we would give charity even if it had nothinf to do with being compassionate and we didn't understand the benifit  but luckily charity is an act of compassion and we are required to feel that compassion.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2017, 10:53:06 AM »
For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer.

Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.

Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2017, 10:54:36 AM »
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2017, 10:55:27 AM »
Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.
Of course. That is how some of us learn.  ;)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline good sam

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2017, 11:01:25 AM »

Bad argument. When it's due, it's a baby.

You would ask "when is the cake ready?"  not "when is the batter ready?"
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2017, 11:08:16 AM »
Bad argument. When it's due, it's a baby.

You would ask "when is the cake ready?"  not "when is the batter ready?"
It is an emotional argument like the vast majority of arguments on this toic.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline wayfe

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2017, 01:54:08 PM »
Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.

There's a difference between explaining and trying to explain away- AKA apologizing.
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline wayfe

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2017, 02:11:13 PM »
While I do agree to the general sentiment that jewish law need not fit in with "modern" ethics, I disagree with some of your points made in this post. All mitzvos are meant to refine our charachter and make us more like god. Yes, there are some that we may not understand at all or fully how they do make us better people. However, there are many that are intuitive in how they improve us, to the extent that if there was no torah we would still practice then. I believe that if we approach these mitzvos from the perspective that we only practice them becuase god say so and they dont have any reasoning behind them they will have minimul affect on improving us. Yes we would give charity even if it had nothinf to do with being compassionate and we didn't understand the benifit  but luckily charity is an act of compassion and we are required to feel that compassion.

The problem with only doing Mitzvos because they make sense, feel right or are 'intuitive' is that you run into roadblocks when society's view shifts as it has over the millenia and you find that current scientific theory, or pop culture is at odds with your beliefs (ex. creation ex nihilo, prohibition against homosexual relationships, or abortions)

As to your point regarding Mizvos making us more like G-d, things get more complicated.

I was taught that you lead with your mind and follow with your heart. Your mind analyzes a situation and come up with the correct course of action and only then does it tell the heart what is the appropriate emotion to feel. We do charitable acts first because we were commanded to, and then we follow with appropriate emotions of brotherly love, pity, compassion...
So the commandment is primary but the intuative feeling is secondary.

Here's more complicated part-
G-d is not a person or a thing- He does not have attributes and we can't define Him. G-d chooses modalities (mercy, kindness, compassion, strength... etc) in which to express Himself to us, and He does request that we immitate them. But He is not bound by them and they do not define Him. It is merely His free choice.
So the mitzvah didn't have to be kindness or compassion. There is no intrinsic value to it. It could have been anything. It doesn't matter that it's intuitive or feels right or good to us.
It is only the right and good thing to do- simply because He wanted it to be so.
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Online Redbull3

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2017, 02:22:15 PM »
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us, which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it... to each their own though.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2017, 02:30:10 PM »
wayfe, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs but just want to point out that you do not speak for all Jews. I was brought up- and currently subscribe- to a very different, rationalist approach than what you describe, achieving perfection by pursuing knowledge, striving to understand the deeper ideas to mitzvos so we can understand exactly how they are supposed to perfect us, which is a bit more involved than just doing it BECAUSE we are commanded to do it... to each their own though.

I don't think you are arguing. What were you taught to do until you understand?

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #148 on: January 27, 2017, 02:35:18 PM »
I don't think you are arguing. What were you taught to do until you understand?
Naseh vnishma of course... but that doesn't excuse not analyzing reasons where possible. Otherwise, what even is "torah learning"? I could be misunderstanding her and you.

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #149 on: January 27, 2017, 02:35:47 PM »
I know it is only a stupid like button but I never planned on using it. I did this time and never will again. Not only do I agree with what you said I also understand it completely. I know this is only JS but I should have never responded in the first place to the OP. If I was the OP I would ask to have this thread deleted. For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer. I am impressed you would take the time to write such an eloquent response.
Wow I'm actually starting to contemplate that you may be normal after all