Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 51150 times)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18342
  • Total likes: 14534
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #200 on: November 09, 2017, 11:47:37 PM »
What about the possibility that it's not murder, but it's something else. Never hear that from any side, only the torah.
If it isn't murder isn't it automatically something else?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 3524
  • Total likes: 558
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #201 on: November 10, 2017, 07:42:26 AM »
If it isn't murder isn't it automatically something else?
Yes it's abortion. But you know what I mean.
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7647
  • Total likes: 301
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #202 on: November 10, 2017, 07:59:52 AM »
What if a fetus is aborted at 6 months (just picked a number). How would you know if it could breath on its own?
All I said was in response to a post that said: "just look at the sonogram, it's alive"
That is a false proof. There are fetuses missing vital organs who look just dandy in the womb. This is because life is sustained by the mother.

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 435
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #203 on: May 15, 2019, 11:37:50 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 5773
  • Total likes: 1151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #204 on: May 15, 2019, 11:59:28 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Right so when a woman gets raped and shes in no danger...

And every other scenario where Rabbanim are matir...

Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 18342
  • Total likes: 14534
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #205 on: May 15, 2019, 12:09:18 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Bernie has a SCOTUS ruling on his side you know.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #206 on: May 15, 2019, 12:12:20 PM »
Right so when a woman gets raped and shes in no danger...
  This bill bans morning after?

Quote
And every other scenario where Rabbanim are matir...

G-d decides when life begins. Halacha is informed by the word of G-d. It can morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus.  Secular law makes no such claim to a divine source.  It can not morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus. 

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 2164
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #207 on: May 15, 2019, 12:13:35 PM »
Bernie has a SCOTUS ruling on his side you know.

That was a pretty crazy SCOTUS.  ;D

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 435
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #208 on: May 15, 2019, 12:44:22 PM »
Arguments libs use to defend baby slaying are mind-numbing:

Rep. John Rogers of Birmingham, AL

"Some kids are unwanted, so you kill them now or you kill them later. You bring them in the world unwanted, unloved, you send them to the electric chair. So, you kill them now or you kill them later"

Clearly, this dem agrees that abortion = murder. And if you listen to other libs, it's clear that many are of the same opinion.

But John holds that since the mother wants to slay her infant, then if she can't, the baby won't get enough love anyhow and will probably get the electric chair.

Scary.

First off, very few people receive the death penalty even in a state that allows it, so the odds are stacked against it. But anyhow, can we shoot a kid that doesn't have a loving parent?

Other genius arguments are along the lines of, "do you know how hard it is to carry a baby?"

In other words, it may well be manslaughter but vacuuming out the baby is OK because it's really hard to hold that baby for nine months.

Wow.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22685
  • Total likes: 7190
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #209 on: May 15, 2019, 01:10:29 PM »
So he just said that every woman who wants an abortion doesn’t know how to love a child & would raise them so bad that they would end up committing the most violent crimes imaginable.
Now how would liberals react had a republican said the exact same thing ?

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 435
  • Total likes: 36
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2019, 01:20:16 PM »
So he just said that every woman who wants an abortion doesn’t know how to love a child & would raise them so bad that they would end up committing the most violent crimes imaginable.
Now how would liberals react had a republican said the exact same thing ?

Who cares. It's a question of right and wrong. If a Republican or a Democrat advocated for murder or any wrong thing, they would be wrong. It just so happens to be that Democrats are much more often the liberal bums who are advocating for murder, against capital punishment, pro-gays, etc. If it were the other way, then upstanding people would hate the repubs more than the dems.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22685
  • Total likes: 7190
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2019, 01:22:03 PM »
Who cares. It's a question of right and wrong. If a Republican or a Democrat advocated for murder or any wrong thing, they would be wrong. It just so happens to be that Democrats are much more often the liberal bums who are advocating for murder, against capital punishment, pro-gays, etc. If it were the other way, then upstanding people would hate the repubs more than the dems.
The fringe left are pro-murder. Period. The-not-so-fringe left are afraid to speak up
He just destroyed every woman who wants an abortion.

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2019, 02:15:32 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.

Offline TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 22685
  • Total likes: 7190
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2019, 02:22:33 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
Is there a case where a Rav would require it but a dr. would be against it ? There’s still 49 other states.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1713
  • Total likes: 1685
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2019, 02:23:23 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2019, 02:28:09 PM »
Is there a case where a Rav would require it but a dr. would be against it ? There’s still 49 other states.
Who's to say that other states wouldn't follow?

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2019, 02:29:06 PM »
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder, so who says it's in the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach? If a person causes a fetus to die, he pays a fine (Parashas Mishpatim).

Offline ADG

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 1469
  • Total likes: 79
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: BK
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2019, 02:33:52 PM »
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder, so who says it's in the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach? If a person causes a fetus to die, he pays a fine (Parashas Mishpatim).

That is an accidental senario. The Rambam would probably be the best guide for the jewish position....


Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 2794
  • Total likes: 326
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2019, 02:42:39 PM »
That is an accidental senario. The Rambam would probably be the best guide for the jewish position....

An accidental murderer goes to an Ir Miklat. An accidental aborter pays a fine.

Either way, a good primer on the Sugya: https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Abortion-Pro-life-or-pro-choice-564557

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1713
  • Total likes: 1685
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: 412
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2019, 03:08:04 PM »
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder

You are stating as fact something that is very much in dispute.