Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 15230 times)

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 531
  • Total likes: 106
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #255 on: May 15, 2019, 06:21:15 PM »
Not our job, not our responsibility.

Wrong. וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7558
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #256 on: May 15, 2019, 06:21:25 PM »
This is where I disagree. True, there are differences between Torah's approach and the right wing approach, however fundamentally they are coming from the same place (putting value on unborn life and according to most poskim regarding [certainly a non-jewish] fetus as a human being.) In other words, the differences are in nuance.
The idea that, from conception, a fetus is held on the same status as a live human is not a Torah idea. Besides for the fact that even if it were true that our ideals lined up exactly, why advocate for the government making morality a question of law? It's not the government's job.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #257 on: May 15, 2019, 06:21:33 PM »
And what about when the government decides that we shouldn't be allowed to circumcise people before they're 18?
Then we would be very sad and try our very best to get it rescinded.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7558
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #258 on: May 15, 2019, 06:23:12 PM »
Wrong. וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח
Ah, so it's our land with our government with our rulers now?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7558
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #259 on: May 15, 2019, 06:24:24 PM »
Then we would be very sad and try our very best to get it rescinded.
But why give our government the ability to do that to begin with? It's our job to make sure that the goyim do as few "immoral" things as possible?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 531
  • Total likes: 106
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #260 on: May 15, 2019, 06:28:06 PM »
Ah, so it's our land with our government with our rulers now?

You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 1508
  • Total likes: 101
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #261 on: May 15, 2019, 06:30:13 PM »
You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
If we support chiristans trying to establish religion around us, pretty soon, being frum will be illegal.

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #262 on: May 15, 2019, 06:30:38 PM »
why advocate for the government making morality a question of law? It's not the government's job.
I hate to break it to you, but the government is responsible to enforce moral laws.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his possessions are very immoral things to do. They are ethically wrong.
We advocate for many other moral laws, where the government its shirking its duty, such as turning a blind eye to abortion.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7558
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #263 on: May 15, 2019, 06:30:50 PM »
You'll notice I didn't quote that part of your post. The fact that it is not our land just means that our ability to fulfill our obligation is limited. For most of the past 2000 years it was completely impossible, however today there are ways that we can.
Yes, we can advocate to have catholic ideals enshrined in law, that's worked out well for us in the past.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 7558
  • Total likes: 629
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #264 on: May 15, 2019, 06:33:50 PM »
I hate to break it to you, but the government is responsible to enforce moral laws.
Killing your neighbor or stealing his possessions are very immoral things to do. They are ethically wrong.
We advocate for many other moral laws, where the government its shirking its duty, such as turning a blind eye to abortion.
You are confusing ethics and morals with the job of government to protect us from each other. I'm not going to have a debate here about democratic political theory but not all things are equal. Remember that it's the catholics who came up with this, not us. Especially when you bring in something like the death penalty in the case of Georgia, Idk how you don't see this entire thing as clearly a Christian religious agenda which should have no place in government even if it is "morally" better for people to be doing or avoiding something.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #265 on: May 15, 2019, 06:37:01 PM »
But why give our government the ability to do that to begin with? It's our job to make sure that the goyim do as few "immoral" things as possible?

So your argument is that since it is possible for the government to overstep its bounds and prohibit Milah or Shchitah, therefore we should not advocate for any moral thing whatsoever. We should keep silent when they push for abortions, gay rights, etc. One thing does not lead to the other.

And by the way, the Torah views certain things to be intrinsically bad or immoral.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 1508
  • Total likes: 101
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #266 on: May 15, 2019, 06:39:54 PM »
So your argument is that since it is possible for the government to overstep its bounds and prohibit Milah or Shchitah, therefore we should not advocate for any moral thing whatsoever. We should keep silent when they push for abortions, gay rights, etc. One thing does not lead to the other.

And by the way, the Torah views certain things to be intrinsically bad or immoral.
If abortion is as immoral as you say, how come it's sometimes allowed in the case of a mental heath issue for the mother that's not life threatening?

Offline Shkop

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 372
  • Total likes: 9
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #267 on: May 15, 2019, 06:42:44 PM »
You are confusing ethics and morals with the job of government to protect us from each other.
I am saying that there is an ethical and moral responsibility for the government to enforce the law and that murdering or stealing from your neighbor is ethically and morally wrong.

My Google search says that "moral" means, concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
 Judaism firmly believes that there are absolute right/good and wrong/bad standards.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 531
  • Total likes: 106
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #268 on: May 15, 2019, 06:43:53 PM »
If abortion is as immoral as you say, how come it's sometimes allowed in the case of a mental heath issue for the mother that's not life threatening?

Because those poskim consider mental health to be considered סכנת אבר.

Also, something can be immoral in some circumstances, and a mitzvah in others.

Offline shaulyaakov

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2013
  • Posts: 1508
  • Total likes: 101
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #269 on: May 15, 2019, 06:51:58 PM »
When a fetus is tested and it is determined that it has a disability or deformity, many poskim [16] state that there is no allowance for abortion. Rabbi Waldenberg disagrees and rules that when the resulting child’s deformity will cause stress that the parents will not be able to handle, it is permitted to abort. Rabbi waldenberg says “ there is no greater pain than to have a child that will die and there is nothing you can do to fix it.” For most types of deformities, Rabbi Waldenberg permits abortion only until 3 months. If the child has Tay Sachs he allows abortions even up until 7 months.[17]
An issue can also arise when the fetus in question would be born a Mamzer, a child from an illegitimate sexual relationship. Because of the adulterous affair the woman is deserving of the death penalty. Since the fetus is a part of the mother, and not it’s own entity, it too is technically liable for the death penalty and one can therefore, according to Rav Yaakov Emden, abort it. [18]
A question arises if the mother will experience severe mental distress if the baby is born. Rabbi Waldenberg holds that abortion is not murder at all, and that mental distress can be equated with physical pain. Therefore, abortion would be allowed if one’s rabbi determines that the mental stress is the same as the physical would be. [19] Rabbi Unterman takes a similar approach to the issue. Rabbi Unterman does believe that abortion is considered akin to murder, and therefore cannot be allowed in cases of mental anguish. However, if the psychological distress that the mother would feel would cause suicidal tendencies, Rabbi Unterman would permit abortion. [20]

https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Abortion