Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 15888 times)

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #270 on: May 15, 2019, 06:57:26 PM »
When a fetus is tested and it is determined that it has a disability or deformity, many poskim [16] state that there is no allowance for abortion.
Thanks for a source for the majority opinion.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #271 on: May 15, 2019, 06:58:53 PM »
If people here cannot understand that even if something is considered "morally" or "ethically" wrong, we still may not want the government to prohibit said thing by law, then I'm out. You must all be socialists who got their moral compass from the catholics or something like that.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #272 on: May 15, 2019, 07:04:58 PM »
I'll make sure to come back to this thread when Michigan passes a law inspired by Sharia law with religious exceptions advocated for by Islamic organizations.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #273 on: May 15, 2019, 07:06:29 PM »
I'll make sure to come back to this thread when Michigan passes a law inspired by Sharia law with religious exceptions advocated for by Islamic organizations.
It boggles my mind that this is something people here are just refusing to understand.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #274 on: May 15, 2019, 07:08:12 PM »
If people here cannot understand that even if something is considered "morally" or "ethically" wrong, we still may not want the government to prohibit said thing by law, then I'm out. You must all be socialists who got their moral compass from the catholics or something like that.
It depends what that something is. If that something is baby slaying, then we want the government to consider it highly immoral and prohibit it.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #275 on: May 15, 2019, 07:09:07 PM »
It depends what that something is. If that something is baby slaying, then we want the government to consider it highly immoral and prohibit it.
Ah, so socialist.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #276 on: May 15, 2019, 07:10:51 PM »
It boggles my mind that this is something people here are just refusing to understand.
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #277 on: May 15, 2019, 07:12:19 PM »
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #278 on: May 15, 2019, 07:15:44 PM »
Ah, so socialist.
I hate to break it to you. Just because you are convinced of the veracity of some tenant of democracy does not mean the Torah accords with it.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #279 on: May 15, 2019, 07:16:19 PM »
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.
Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #280 on: May 15, 2019, 07:16:23 PM »
I hate to break it to you. Just because you are convinced of the veracity of some tenant of democracy does not mean the Torah accords with it.
Tell it to the nazis.
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Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #281 on: May 15, 2019, 07:19:02 PM »
Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)
I'm not exactly sure where we disagree. I'll only add that when the government tries to differentiate between certain cases and when a religious exception should apply, they generally do a bad job and there's no guarantee that it will come out in a way that's favorable for us. Much better to not get into the mess to begin with.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #282 on: May 15, 2019, 07:22:26 PM »
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do
I'm glad you are bothered by the idea of a government telling you what to do but that's what they are supposed to do whether you like it or not. If you lived in earlier times, Beth Din would interfere with what you are allowed to do in your bedroom and in your kitchen.

I know it sucks, but the only rights people have are what the Creator gives them. It's His world, so He calls the shots.

A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #283 on: May 15, 2019, 07:24:00 PM »
I'm glad you are bothered by the idea of a government telling you what to do but that's what they are supposed to do whether you like it or not. If you lived in earlier times, Beth Din would interfere with what you are allowed to do in your bedroom and in your kitchen.

I know it sucks, but the only rights people have are what the Creator gives them. It's His world, so He calls the shots.
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #284 on: May 15, 2019, 07:24:39 PM »
Tell it to the nazis.
I should tell them that they shouldn't gas the Jewish people?
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth