Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 16545 times)

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6200
  • Total likes: 1083
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2017, 08:20:09 AM »
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?
Rabbis Freeman and Moss, both of whom are extremely learned and talented, are, with all due respect, not considered Halachic authorities (neither am I). That is why I pointed you to an actual Halachic authority (which I don't think anyone here would claim is non-traditional, or non-mainstream).

The way I understand Maimonides (especially taking into account the section of his compendium where he placed this Halacha) it is a Mitzvah that pertains to a king, and not upon each individual jew.

Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:24:40 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2017, 09:30:56 AM »
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
Where in the world did you get that from?  ???
Is a nine week fetus a human being?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2017, 09:32:51 AM »
Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
Stop right their. Soldiers can be murderers.

GIYF: William Laws Calley Jr.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:37:02 AM by JTZ »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline yitrap

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 3318
  • Total likes: 49
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2017, 09:42:30 AM »
I take that to mean if some are still alive today the are to be obliterated. Am I reading it correctly?
Only
"when the Lord your God grants you respite from all your enemies around [you] in the land which the Lord, your God, gives to you as an inheritance to posses"

Not applicable at this moment.
B'H soon

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2017, 09:43:25 AM »
Not applicable at this moment.
B'H soon
:)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7088
  • Total likes: 1670
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2017, 09:47:09 AM »


Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
because they we just following orders?

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 528
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2017, 10:05:10 AM »
Where in the world did you get that from?  ???
Is a nine week fetus a human being?
Why are you asking me my view? That's not the point.

So in your view, life begins at conception, but that life is not a human being?

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2017, 10:09:19 AM »
Why are you asking me my view? That's not the point.

So in your view, life begins at conception, but that life is not a human being?
I told you several times my view on abortion/murder is personal. I also stated my views on abortion. That doesn't mean I going to let you make these crazy leaps.

"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 528
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2017, 10:20:20 AM »
I told you several times my view on abortion/murder is personal. I also stated my views on abortion. That doesn't mean I going to let you make these crazy leaps.
Which leap is crazy?

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2017, 10:22:41 AM »
Which leap is crazy?
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline as2

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Posts: 4876
  • Total likes: 538
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 21
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2017, 10:24:41 AM »
Life and a human being are 2 different things. Life is shared across animals, plants and so on. As per JTZ, yes life starts at conception, but that life may never even become a human being. The assumption you are making to prove his inconsistencies is only an assumption and he clearly isn't agrering with it. Why does this have to continue?
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 528
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2017, 11:19:38 AM »
It doesn't.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6200
  • Total likes: 1083
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2017, 11:36:38 AM »
Stop right there. Soldiers can be murderers.

GIYF: William Laws Calley Jr.
FTFY

Soldiers can be murderers, but I would argue that not when filling commands in a just war.

I suggest you read further down through Maimonides, where you will see that there are specific ways of how war is to be waged and conducted.

I will also point out, that despite several opportunities, it was only once (IINM) that a Jewish king waged a war on Amalek, for the purpose of total annihilation, and at that time was commanded by a prophet to do so (Maimonides also discusses at length the qualifications of a true prophet).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2017, 11:42:15 AM »
Soldiers can be murderers, but I would argue that not when filling commands in a just war.
You can argue all you want but the facts say different. What is a filling?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7088
  • Total likes: 1670
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2017, 12:17:33 PM »
FTFY

Soldiers can be murderers, but I would argue that not when filling commands in a just war.

I suggest you read further down through Maimonides, where you will see that there are specific ways of how war is to be waged and conducted.

I will also point out, that despite several opportunities, it was only once (IINM) that a Jewish king waged a war on Amalek, for the purpose of total annihilation, and at that time was commanded by a prophet to do so (Maimonides also discusses at length the qualifications of a true prophet).
so you feel that Eichmann should have been exonerated?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.