Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 16153 times)

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2017, 03:38:26 AM »
No, we have not been talking about your inconsistency about abortion.
You say they are inconsistent. Don't pretend I have not stated my views abortion.

Now can I get my answer if you believe it is OK to kill women and children?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 528
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2017, 03:40:47 AM »
You say they are inconsistent. Don't pretend I have not stated my views abortion.

Now can I get my answer if you believe it is OK to kill women and children?
I asked you to explain how you differentiate between wanting murder to be illegal, but not abortion (which you also consider murder).

No.

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2017, 03:48:32 AM »
(which you also consider murder).
I said abortion was murder?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6130
  • Total likes: 1047
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #78 on: January 25, 2017, 04:11:16 AM »
Lets take the second one. If the purpose was to exterminate a whole race then it was not justified.
Why are you speculating about an historical event? What was the purpose?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #79 on: January 25, 2017, 05:32:39 AM »
Why are you speculating about an historical event? What was the purpose?
To end the war.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6130
  • Total likes: 1047
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2017, 05:37:24 AM »
To end the war.
Even though it was known as a certainty that women and children would be killed. Was it justified?

(As a side note, if the enemy is داعش would killing children be justified?)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #81 on: January 25, 2017, 05:48:53 AM »
Even though it was known as a certainty that women and children would be killed. Was it justified?
If the decision was up to me I am not sure what I would have done. So your answer would be I am not sure.

So you are trying to equate this with exterminate of a race because they were both done for what some would call the greater good. Am I following correctly?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2017, 06:05:11 AM »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 1837
  • Total likes: 113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2017, 06:51:20 AM »
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm

That take is distinctly apologetic. It may be a valid explanation (one would need early Talmudic sources for the allegorising of Amalek) but it is definitely not the mainstream approach.

Jews pray daily for the Final Redemption which will be accompanied by the return of kingship and prophesy to the Jewish People.  In those days G-d's glory will be know to all the nations of the world and no one will think to question His commandments because of apparent inconsistencies with western morals.  Until then, Jews raised in western democracies in the 21st century will likely have issues understanding certain commandments that seem cruel and immoral to them.  To those with an proper appreciation of their Tradition and Heritage these issues will not be disturbing.  We know that a day will come when we will no longer have these issues.

In regards to Amalek, being that we have no way of identifying them if they do exist, we are exempt from our obligations in relation to them.  If in the time of the Final Redemption we become aware of Amalek's continued existence, we will be obligated to carry out our obligations relating to them including the killing of women and children.  In that future time it will be evident to all that that is not immoral.

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2017, 07:07:27 AM »
That take is distinctly apologetic. It may be a valid explanation (one would need early Talmudic sources for the allegorising of Amalek) but it is definitely not the mainstream approach.

Jews pray daily for the Final Redemption which will be accompanied by the return of kingship and prophesy to the Jewish People.  In those days G-d's glory will be know to all the nations of the world and no one will think to question His commandments because of apparent inconsistencies with western morals.  Until then, Jews raised in western democracies in the 21st century will likely have issues understanding certain commandments that seem cruel and immoral to them.  To those with an proper appreciation of their Tradition and Heritage these issues will not be disturbing.  We know that a day will come when we will no longer have these issues.

In regards to Amalek, being that we have no way of identifying them if they do exist, we are exempt from our obligations in relation to them.  If in the time of the Final Redemption we become aware of Amalek's continued existence, we will be obligated to carry out our obligations relating to them including the killing of women and children.  In that future time it will be evident to all that that is not immoral.
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Boruch999

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 1837
  • Total likes: 113
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2017, 07:22:01 AM »
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?

Yes and I don't know  :)

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2017, 07:23:37 AM »
Yes and I don't know  :)
Finally a simple answer. TY!
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Online ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6130
  • Total likes: 1047
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2017, 08:07:47 AM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1903
  • Total likes: 224
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2017, 08:10:24 AM »
And? Have your issues been answered? Are you now satisfied, and we can go back to discuss abortion? :P
Yes so now I understand the OP believes it is OK to kill women and children so my personal views are meaningless.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Cheesecake

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 528
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2017, 08:16:55 AM »
I said abortion was murder?
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.