Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 51145 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #80 on: January 25, 2017, 05:37:24 AM »
To end the war.
Even though it was known as a certainty that women and children would be killed. Was it justified?

(As a side note, if the enemy is داعش would killing children be justified?)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #81 on: January 25, 2017, 05:48:53 AM »
Even though it was known as a certainty that women and children would be killed. Was it justified?
If the decision was up to me I am not sure what I would have done. So your answer would be I am not sure.

So you are trying to equate this with exterminate of a race because they were both done for what some would call the greater good. Am I following correctly?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #82 on: January 25, 2017, 06:05:11 AM »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #83 on: January 25, 2017, 06:51:20 AM »
Next time send me here: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/267677/jewish/Wipe-Out-Amalek-Today.htm 
and
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2494730/jewish/Torah-and-Genocide-FAQ.htm

That take is distinctly apologetic. It may be a valid explanation (one would need early Talmudic sources for the allegorising of Amalek) but it is definitely not the mainstream approach.

Jews pray daily for the Final Redemption which will be accompanied by the return of kingship and prophesy to the Jewish People.  In those days G-d's glory will be know to all the nations of the world and no one will think to question His commandments because of apparent inconsistencies with western morals.  Until then, Jews raised in western democracies in the 21st century will likely have issues understanding certain commandments that seem cruel and immoral to them.  To those with an proper appreciation of their Tradition and Heritage these issues will not be disturbing.  We know that a day will come when we will no longer have these issues.

In regards to Amalek, being that we have no way of identifying them if they do exist, we are exempt from our obligations in relation to them.  If in the time of the Final Redemption we become aware of Amalek's continued existence, we will be obligated to carry out our obligations relating to them including the killing of women and children.  In that future time it will be evident to all that that is not immoral.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #84 on: January 25, 2017, 07:07:27 AM »
That take is distinctly apologetic. It may be a valid explanation (one would need early Talmudic sources for the allegorising of Amalek) but it is definitely not the mainstream approach.

Jews pray daily for the Final Redemption which will be accompanied by the return of kingship and prophesy to the Jewish People.  In those days G-d's glory will be know to all the nations of the world and no one will think to question His commandments because of apparent inconsistencies with western morals.  Until then, Jews raised in western democracies in the 21st century will likely have issues understanding certain commandments that seem cruel and immoral to them.  To those with an proper appreciation of their Tradition and Heritage these issues will not be disturbing.  We know that a day will come when we will no longer have these issues.

In regards to Amalek, being that we have no way of identifying them if they do exist, we are exempt from our obligations in relation to them.  If in the time of the Final Redemption we become aware of Amalek's continued existence, we will be obligated to carry out our obligations relating to them including the killing of women and children.  In that future time it will be evident to all that that is not immoral.
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2017, 07:22:01 AM »
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?

Yes and I don't know  :)

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2017, 07:23:37 AM »
Yes and I don't know  :)
Finally a simple answer. TY!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2017, 08:07:47 AM »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2017, 08:10:24 AM »
And? Have your issues been answered? Are you now satisfied, and we can go back to discuss abortion? :P
Yes so now I understand the OP believes it is OK to kill women and children so my personal views are meaningless.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2017, 08:16:55 AM »
I said abortion was murder?
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2017, 08:20:09 AM »
So simple put there have been times in the past and maybe in the future where you were/will be obligated to kill women and children.

Chabad.org is not a good source for this information?
Rabbis Freeman and Moss, both of whom are extremely learned and talented, are, with all due respect, not considered Halachic authorities (neither am I). That is why I pointed you to an actual Halachic authority (which I don't think anyone here would claim is non-traditional, or non-mainstream).

The way I understand Maimonides (especially taking into account the section of his compendium where he placed this Halacha) it is a Mitzvah that pertains to a king, and not upon each individual jew.

Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 08:24:40 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2017, 09:30:56 AM »
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
Where in the world did you get that from?  ???
Is a nine week fetus a human being?
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2017, 09:32:51 AM »
Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
Stop right their. Soldiers can be murderers.

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 09:37:02 AM by JTZ »
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline yitrap

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2017, 09:42:30 AM »
I take that to mean if some are still alive today the are to be obliterated. Am I reading it correctly?
Only
"when the Lord your God grants you respite from all your enemies around [you] in the land which the Lord, your God, gives to you as an inheritance to posses"

Not applicable at this moment.
B'H soon

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2017, 09:43:25 AM »
Not applicable at this moment.
B'H soon
:)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2017, 09:47:09 AM »


Once the King wages war, soldiers acting on his behalf cannot be considered murderers (as I am sure you wouldn't consider any of the participants in the bombings I referenced above).
because they we just following orders?

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2017, 10:05:10 AM »
Where in the world did you get that from?  ???
Is a nine week fetus a human being?
Why are you asking me my view? That's not the point.

So in your view, life begins at conception, but that life is not a human being?

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2017, 10:09:19 AM »
Why are you asking me my view? That's not the point.

So in your view, life begins at conception, but that life is not a human being?
I told you several times my view on abortion/murder is personal. I also stated my views on abortion. That doesn't mean I going to let you make these crazy leaps.

"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2017, 10:20:20 AM »
I told you several times my view on abortion/murder is personal. I also stated my views on abortion. That doesn't mean I going to let you make these crazy leaps.
Which leap is crazy?

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2017, 10:22:41 AM »
Which leap is crazy?
You said life begins at conception. It follows that abortion is murder.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(