Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 53517 times)

Offline Mordyk

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #120 on: January 26, 2017, 09:39:07 AM »
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
#TYH

Offline as2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #121 on: January 26, 2017, 09:49:26 AM »
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
We already established that A life and a human being are not interpreted as the same in everyone's books. Also keep in mind, taking a life is not always murder.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline David Smith

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #122 on: January 26, 2017, 10:07:55 AM »
I dont know why this discussion isnt concluded just by looking at a sonogram... as live as can be
Halacha would disagree.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline cholent

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #123 on: January 26, 2017, 10:34:46 AM »
Ask your Local ORTHODOX Rabbi! (Nothing added to the word ORTHODOX.) Please don't take this thread and turn it into antisemitism!
Was that aimed at JTZ? Lol
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline Mordyk

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #124 on: January 26, 2017, 06:47:32 PM »
We already established that A life and a human being are not interpreted as the same in everyone's books. Also keep in mind, taking a life is not always murder.
Slitting the spine of a breathing baby that came out in the latest pregnancy stages is definitely considered murder.... and thats how many abortions go down
#TYH

Offline as2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #125 on: January 26, 2017, 07:13:24 PM »
Slitting the spine of a breathing baby that came out in the latest pregnancy stages is definitely considered murder.... and thats how many abortions go down
Ok?
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #126 on: January 26, 2017, 07:15:41 PM »
Wow this thread took a turn. Great job OP.  :P
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline good sam

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #127 on: January 26, 2017, 07:28:00 PM »
ETA: I'm done. I don't want to get pulled in here.

Pet peeve

People who post numerous times in a thread that they're leaving the conversation for good.

1. You're probably not.
2. Nobody cares.
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #128 on: January 26, 2017, 08:33:54 PM »
Wow this thread took a turn. Great job OP. 
Your idea. 😛

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #129 on: January 26, 2017, 08:35:20 PM »
Your idea. 😛
Actually it wasn't. I guess you missed the  ;) in the post you are referring to.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline as2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2017, 08:37:53 PM »
Actually it wasn't. I guess you missed the  ;) in the post you are referring to.
Wasn't this over?
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2017, 08:38:34 PM »
Wasn't this over?
I thought it was but they dragged me back in.  :)
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Cheesecake

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2017, 08:40:05 PM »
Wasn't this over?
We're not discussing it any more. We're just discussing discussing it.

If you want, we can start discussing discussing discussing it.

Offline as2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2017, 08:40:48 PM »
I thought it was but they dragged me back in.  :)
Leave!
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline HBS

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #134 on: January 27, 2017, 06:04:02 AM »
Slitting the spine of a breathing baby that came out in the latest pregnancy stages is definitely considered murder.... and thats how many abortions go down
So it's the method of "killing" which makes something murder?
If it's "humane", like, I don't know, lethal injection, then it's fine?

Offline wayfe

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2017, 08:44:46 AM »
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 09:00:51 AM by wayfe »
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers which can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2017, 09:04:57 AM »
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.

Wow!  +1

Offline JTZ

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2017, 10:49:57 AM »
@JTZ,
I know it is only a stupid like button but I never planned on using it. I did this time and never will again. Not only do I agree with what you said I also understand it completely. I know this is only JS but I should have never responded in the first place to the OP. If I was the OP I would ask to have this thread deleted. For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer. I am impressed you would take the time to write such an eloquent response.
"LESS IS MORE" It is the cumulative effect that kills deals!!! How many times do I have to say this?  >:(

Offline Sport

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2017, 10:52:26 AM »
@JTZ,

I've often read your posts and I respect you a lot, but i've have thought that many of your post indicate that you seem to misunderstand something basic about Judaism.

While Judaism contains many elegant and neat truths, and is taught and studied and expounded upon by intellectual greats who use logic to decipher it's codes and come up with new laws and rulings- ultimately, it is NOT a logical or rational religion.

At first, however, in our search for Truth we are bound to logic and our limited capacity to understand truth.
When Abraham looked around the world, it was with logical conclusion that realized that there must be G-d in the world, and that it wasn't those idols his fellows worshipped.
So, acknowledging a Higher Power, and evaluatinge a religion is still within the realm of logic. And every ounce and every capacity for our human brains to evaluate and arrive at the truth, must be used. But anything after that point, logic is futile. G-d and his Torah are not bound to the limits of logic, because they are greater than logic. Suprarational, not subrational. It would seem ridiculous to try to understand G-d or his Torah through the lens of logic.

We do NOT do acts of charity out of kindness because it is the 'good' thing to do.
We act charitably with kindness because G-d commanded us to.

We are forbidden to murder, NOT because rationally it seems inhumane, unfair, evil or immoral.
We don't murder because we were forbidden to do so by a Higher Authority that we sumbit completely to, G-d. Period.

In a case such as Amalek, we can try to understand it as best as we can, with many beautiful midrashim and explanations... But ultimately, it's another commandment, and we quiet the resistance of our human minds, and accept that this is what G-d wants.
And it doesn't matter whether it makes sense or not. And it doesn't matter if it makes us look evil in the eyes of others.

(A. And how do we know this is what G-d wants? Different Discussion. B. And why can't other violent religions use the same ideas to explain their violence? While we are commanded to love and respect and tolerate all human beings, it doesn't mean that we need to agree with them, or accept their religion as truth. A deeper investigation will show falacies in the original thinking that led them to their belief. But that brings us back to A)

I am an openly unapologetic American, Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
I don't apologize for my religion even when it seems at odds with the rest of 'modern' thought.
___________________________

So, under Jewish Law, even though a fetus isn't considered fully a human, if it is not Amalek and it is not posing a threat to its mother, and it seems to be healthy with normal potential for life- (of course, each case must be analyzed by Drs and competent halachic authority) then it is forbidden to kill it via abortion.

Inopportune time or unwanted pregnancies are not (usually) considered a threat to the mother's health- and therefor are forbidden.

At all times, the question is NOT, "Is the right or humane thing to do?" rather, it is "In this case, what has G-d commanded"

ETA: This doesn't mean that religious people can shut off our minds and disregard logic. We always use logic to explore any topic to the limits of our minds, but ultimately we understand that logic is not the be and end all. There's more.
While I do agree to the general sentiment that jewish law need not fit in with "modern" ethics, I disagree with some of your points made in this post. All mitzvos are meant to refine our charachter and make us more like god. Yes, there are some that we may not understand at all or fully how they do make us better people. However, there are many that are intuitive in how they improve us, to the extent that if there was no torah we would still practice then. I believe that if we approach these mitzvos from the perspective that we only practice them becuase god say so and they dont have any reasoning behind them they will have minimul affect on improving us. Yes we would give charity even if it had nothinf to do with being compassionate and we didn't understand the benifit  but luckily charity is an act of compassion and we are required to feel that compassion.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2017, 10:53:06 AM »
For the record anyone that would apologize for their religion is not a true believer.

Agree that there is no reason to apologize, but explaining (when possible) is certainly a good thing.