Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 14228 times)

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #210 on: May 15, 2019, 01:20:16 PM »
So he just said that every woman who wants an abortion doesn’t know how to love a child & would raise them so bad that they would end up committing the most violent crimes imaginable.
Now how would liberals react had a republican said the exact same thing ?

Who cares. It's a question of right and wrong. If a Republican or a Democrat advocated for murder or any wrong thing, they would be wrong. It just so happens to be that Democrats are much more often the liberal bums who are advocating for murder, against capital punishment, pro-gays, etc. If it were the other way, then upstanding people would hate the repubs more than the dems.
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Online TimT

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #211 on: May 15, 2019, 01:22:03 PM »
Who cares. It's a question of right and wrong. If a Republican or a Democrat advocated for murder or any wrong thing, they would be wrong. It just so happens to be that Democrats are much more often the liberal bums who are advocating for murder, against capital punishment, pro-gays, etc. If it were the other way, then upstanding people would hate the repubs more than the dems.
The fringe left are pro-murder. Period. The-not-so-fringe left are afraid to speak up
He just destroyed every woman who wants an abortion.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #212 on: May 15, 2019, 02:15:32 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #213 on: May 15, 2019, 02:22:33 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
Is there a case where a Rav would require it but a dr. would be against it ? There’s still 49 other states.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #214 on: May 15, 2019, 02:23:23 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #215 on: May 15, 2019, 02:28:09 PM »
Is there a case where a Rav would require it but a dr. would be against it ? There’s still 49 other states.
Who's to say that other states wouldn't follow?

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2019, 02:29:06 PM »
This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder, so who says it's in the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach? If a person causes a fetus to die, he pays a fine (Parashas Mishpatim).

Offline ADG

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2019, 02:33:52 PM »
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder, so who says it's in the 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach? If a person causes a fetus to die, he pays a fine (Parashas Mishpatim).

That is an accidental senario. The Rambam would probably be the best guide for the jewish position....


Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2019, 02:42:39 PM »
That is an accidental senario. The Rambam would probably be the best guide for the jewish position....

An accidental murderer goes to an Ir Miklat. An accidental aborter pays a fine.

Either way, a good primer on the Sugya: https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Abortion-Pro-life-or-pro-choice-564557

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2019, 03:08:04 PM »
But Halacha clearly doesn't view abortion as murder

You are stating as fact something that is very much in dispute.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2019, 03:24:20 PM »
You are stating as fact something that is very much in dispute.

This is a very good question, but it has to be balanced by our halachik responsibility to ensure that non-jews keep the Sheva mitzvos, amongst which is the prohibition of שופך דם האדם באדם

As are you: 1. That it is murder. 2. That it is murder for non-Jews 3. That we have a responsibility to ensure that non-Jews keep Mitzvos when it's not a Halachic government.

I rephase my comment: "Abortion is not necessarily murder, and certainly has more Heterim attached than actual murder does."

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #221 on: May 15, 2019, 03:27:26 PM »
So let's say a woman gets a psak from a Gadol that she is required to get an abortion for health reasons, but either there is no Dr. willing to risk it, or otherwise the law doesn't allow it in that case. What is the woman to do here - get an abortion anyway for religious reasons, or not get it? The Agudah has been against strict anti-abortion laws before. If the Agudah has that position, maybe that says something about the "life begins at conception" argument, that only holds water in fundamentalist Christian theology.
I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of abortions performed in the 50 states are not due to any medical danger to the mother.

By the way, it's interesting to note that before the giving of the Torah, Pharaoh commanded the midwives to kill the Jewish male infants while the mother was on the birth stool. Of-course they risked their lives and refused to do it. Isn't that late stage abortion?
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #222 on: May 15, 2019, 03:30:14 PM »
As are you: 1. That it is murder. 2. That it is murder for non-Jews 3. That we have a responsibility to ensure that non-Jews keep Mitzvos when it's not a Halachic government.

I rephase my comment: "Abortion is not necessarily murder, and certainly has more Heterim attached than actual murder does."
You can forget about the whole non-Jewish argument because regardless there are non-religious Jewish women that will get an abortion as quickly as anyone else.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #223 on: May 15, 2019, 03:35:06 PM »
You can forget about the whole non-Jewish argument because regardless there are non-religious Jewish women that will get an abortion as quickly as anyone else.

Should we lobby congress to outlaw non-kosher food as well since Jews will eat it? What about to outlaw Christianity or Hindu/Mamish A"Z since some Jews R"L are intermarried and attend services of other religions? Why is abortion one of the few/only areas where we need to make sure secular law is in line with Halacha?


Offline sky121

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #224 on: May 15, 2019, 03:37:08 PM »
Should we lobby congress to outlaw non-kosher food as well since Jews will eat it? What about to outlaw Christianity or Hindu/Mamish A"Z since some Jews R"L are intermarried and attend services of other religions? Why is abortion one of the few/only areas where we need to make sure secular law is in line with Halacha?

Interesting question. While my first reaction as to an answer is that because abortion affects someone else as well, not just the one doing it.

But it's definitely an interesting question and I'm curious to hear others answers as well.
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