Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 53846 times)

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #280 on: May 15, 2019, 07:16:23 PM »
I hate to break it to you. Just because you are convinced of the veracity of some tenant of democracy does not mean the Torah accords with it.
Tell it to the nazis.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #281 on: May 15, 2019, 07:19:02 PM »
Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)
I'm not exactly sure where we disagree. I'll only add that when the government tries to differentiate between certain cases and when a religious exception should apply, they generally do a bad job and there's no guarantee that it will come out in a way that's favorable for us. Much better to not get into the mess to begin with.
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Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #282 on: May 15, 2019, 07:22:26 PM »
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do
I'm glad you are bothered by the idea of a government telling you what to do but that's what they are supposed to do whether you like it or not. If you lived in earlier times, Beth Din would interfere with what you are allowed to do in your bedroom and in your kitchen.

I know it sucks, but the only rights people have are what the Creator gives them. It's His world, so He calls the shots.

A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #283 on: May 15, 2019, 07:24:00 PM »
I'm glad you are bothered by the idea of a government telling you what to do but that's what they are supposed to do whether you like it or not. If you lived in earlier times, Beth Din would interfere with what you are allowed to do in your bedroom and in your kitchen.

I know it sucks, but the only rights people have are what the Creator gives them. It's His world, so He calls the shots.
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #284 on: May 15, 2019, 07:24:39 PM »
Tell it to the nazis.
I should tell them that they shouldn't gas the Jewish people?
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #285 on: May 15, 2019, 07:25:30 PM »
I should tell them that they shouldn't gas the Jewish people?
I'm done
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #286 on: May 15, 2019, 07:27:51 PM »
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
You are the one who made a sweeping statement of how the government, in general, has no right to interfere with how you live your life and should leave baby slaying alone. Wrong regarding American government or any government. Wrong regarding sanhedrin. Wrong regarding G-d
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #287 on: May 15, 2019, 07:37:08 PM »
Lol, yea let's equate the American government to sanhendrin, sure buddy. Keep living in your fantasy world and don't come crying to me when they come knocking on your door.
Ah yes, the Alabama government is the same as the sanhedrin. Sounds legit.

Offline as2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #288 on: May 15, 2019, 08:34:17 PM »
Did this thread just suddenly go to the crapper? Wow.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline aygart

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #289 on: May 15, 2019, 09:35:26 PM »
Did this thread just suddenly go to the crapper? Wow.
Amazing. Who would have thought that?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline doodle

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #290 on: May 15, 2019, 11:35:57 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/alabama-passes-bill-that-would-make-almost-all-abortions-illegal-house-dems-target-trump-lawyers
What a great day!
Alabama makes nearly all abortions illegal (except for cases where the mother is in danger).
Hopefully, this spreads to other states as well. Doctors get life in prison for murdering babies. Imagine that! snuffing out a life is a punishable crime.

So much fun watching libs cry how Alabama is stopping baby slaying. Crazy Bernie says baby slaying is a constitutional right.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-sanders-abortion-a-constitutional-right
Beautiful !!!!!
Itís a victory for good people everywhere !!
Salt Is Good

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #291 on: May 16, 2019, 03:18:48 AM »
Amazing. Who would have thought that?
You're welcome
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #292 on: May 16, 2019, 07:17:33 AM »
The Alabama law doesn't have a carve out for rape cases. That jives with a Halachic worldview?

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #293 on: May 16, 2019, 07:43:31 AM »
The Alabama law doesn't have a carve out for rape cases. That jives with a Halachic worldview?


  This bill bans morning after?

G-d decides when life begins. Halacha is informed by the word of G-d. It can morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus.  Secular law makes no such claim to a divine source.  It can not morally differentiate between different points of development of the fetus.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #294 on: May 16, 2019, 07:46:28 AM »

I've answered this claim 8 times.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #295 on: May 16, 2019, 07:49:01 AM »


Because maybe people should be free to ask their religious leaders these questions and not worry that the law is in contrast with their ruling.

I'm all for reasonable restrictions on abortion that leave enough flexibility to allow that to happen in cases such that there are no need for religious exceptions (kind of like Roe which heavily restricts 3rd term abortions when the fetus could actually survive outside the uterus.)


Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #296 on: May 16, 2019, 07:49:25 AM »
I've answered this claim 8 times.
Link?

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #297 on: May 16, 2019, 07:51:31 AM »


I'm not sure what your position is.  Is it that frum Jews should not be happy with the Alabama law because it restricts abortions that halacha may allow?

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #298 on: May 16, 2019, 07:55:06 AM »
I'm not sure what your position is.  Is it that Frum Jews should not be happy with the Alabama law because it restricts abortions that halacha may allow?
Correct. And proposing religious exemptions either favors one religion over another (unconstitutional) or creates a sitatuon where no reasonable abortion law can stand because anyone can then join the church of Satan that mandates abortion whenever the mother wants.

I also take issue with the absolute claims that  abortion = murder according to Halacha, as well as the concept that Jewish people should pursue legal avenues in a secular government to enforce 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #299 on: May 16, 2019, 07:57:01 AM »
Correct. And proposing religious exemptions either favors one religion over another (unconstitutional) or creates a sitatuon where no reasonable abortion law can stand because anyone can then join the church of Satan that mandates abortion whenever the mother wants.

I also take issue with the absolute claims that  abortion = murder according to Halacha, as well as the concept that Jewish people should pursue legal avenues in a secular government to enforce 7 mitzvos Bnai Noach.
Very well said.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy