Author Topic: Abortion = Murder?  (Read 15203 times)

Offline doodle

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #315 on: May 16, 2019, 12:07:27 PM »
but my religious worldview stops me from supporting a law that will make it harder for people to follow a Psak, even if the law is in a limited geographic area.
You badly need to increase your wordview. A Jew is supposed to be “A light unto the Nations”
Try to meet some Good and Inspirational Yidden !
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Offline Yonah

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #316 on: May 16, 2019, 12:45:57 PM »
Sheesh.  The comment that royally ticked you off is a fact and it was said in context of differentiating a fetus from a criminal sentenced to death.  Nowhere did I say or imply that the rape victim did anything wrong.
Sorry that I pulled it out of context.

There are multiple places where your logic escapes me.  Do you really think US law should consider every child birth as putting the mothers life in danger when considering whether abortion should be permitted?

My logic is this - pregnancy has inherent risks and health problems that come along with it. When someone willingly gets pregnant , she is accepting those risks. When her pregnancy comes about as the victim of a crime - this law forces her to accept all of those risks. The law is essentially asking her to put her health at risk for the sake of a pregnancy which was forced on her as the victim of a crime.

She's also responsible for the consequences as well - any lost time from work, or medical bills - We're doubly victimizing a rape victim.

Quote
Do you really think US law should consider the murder of babies less than a month old as less severe than the murder of a baby older than a month?

My point about a 30 day old baby wasn't to suggest that us law take it into consideration. My point was the extreme as to which halacha doesn't consider a baby to be a 'person' for the purposes of murder. But my real point was that by not having a 'Rape' exemption, we burdening the victim of a crime at the expense of a the rights of a bunch of cells which aren't yet a person. (I am not talking about a late term abortion, because I imagine that a Rape Victim would be at her doctor's the minute she thought she was pregnant).

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #317 on: May 16, 2019, 12:48:58 PM »
You badly need to increase your wordview. A Jew is supposed to be “A light unto the Nations”
Try to meet some Good and Inspirational Yidden !
You're missing the point so badly that saying he needs to increase his worldview is terribly hypocritical at best and mildly idiotic at worst.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #318 on: May 16, 2019, 01:24:17 PM »
Sorry that I pulled it out of context.

My logic is this - pregnancy has inherent risks and health problems that come along with it. When someone willingly gets pregnant , she is accepting those risks. When her pregnancy comes about as the victim of a crime - this law forces her to accept all of those risks. The law is essentially asking her to put her health at risk for the sake of a pregnancy which was forced on her as the victim of a crime.

She's also responsible for the consequences as well - any lost time from work, or medical bills - We're doubly victimizing a rape victim.

My point about a 30 day old baby wasn't to suggest that us law take it into consideration. My point was the extreme as to which halacha doesn't consider a baby to be a 'person' for the purposes of murder. But my real point was that by not having a 'Rape' exemption, we burdening the victim of a crime at the expense of a the rights of a bunch of cells which aren't yet a person. (I am not talking about a late term abortion, because I imagine that a Rape Victim would be at her doctor's the minute she thought she was pregnant).
To echo this, I don't think a single mainstream posek in the world would require a woman to carry her rapist's baby unwillingly rather than get an abortion in the first 40 days.

Offline doodle

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #319 on: May 16, 2019, 02:05:13 PM »
To echo this, I don't think a single mainstream posek in the world would require a woman to carry her rapist's baby unwillingly rather than get an abortion in the first 40 days.
Wow your uneducated. Please ask One Posek , anyone ,
 before you continue to spout how little you really know of this subject.
Or P.M.me and I will provide you source material.
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Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #320 on: May 16, 2019, 02:20:30 PM »
Wow your uneducated. Please ask One Posek , anyone ,
 before you continue to spout how little you really know of this subject.
Or P.M.me and I will provide you source material.

Well, here is some of mine:

http://thejewishreview.org/articles/?id=175

You can read the last line: Rabbi Tendler: The impending review ofthis landmark decision reawakened both the ?Pro-life? and ?Pro-choice? forces in society. Surely the Roe v. Wade decision that extended the right to privacy to include the right to abort any time before fetal viability (the end of the second trimester) should be overturned. The ?legalizing? of abortion led, de facto, to condoning abortion as morally acceptable. This was not the intent of the Supreme Court's opinion, but it was, nonetheless, the result. The primacy of maternal life as justifiable reason to abort, must be clearly stated and maintained. However, the ?frivolous? abortion for sex selection of to prevent discomfiture during a planned vacation must be declared illegal. Abortion because of rape, incest, fear of a probably genetic disease, or great familial stress must be left to individual conscience in our pluralistic society, without legal intrusion into the patient-physician relationship.

The article also state in no uncertain terms several times that if we fear suicide, there is an obligation to abort.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:24:05 PM by shaulyaakov »

Offline Mo2

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #321 on: May 16, 2019, 02:24:02 PM »
Wow your uneducated. Please ask One Posek , anyone ,
 before you continue to spout how little you really know of this subject.
Or P.M.me and I will provide you source material.
+1

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #322 on: May 16, 2019, 02:32:14 PM »
Well, here is some of mine:

http://thejewishreview.org/articles/?id=175

You can read the last line: Rabbi Tendler: The impending review ofthis landmark decision reawakened both the ?Pro-life? and ?Pro-choice? forces in society. Surely the Roe v. Wade decision that extended the right to privacy to include the right to abort any time before fetal viability (the end of the second trimester) should be overturned. The ?legalizing? of abortion led, de facto, to condoning abortion as morally acceptable. This was not the intent of the Supreme Court's opinion, but it was, nonetheless, the result. The primacy of maternal life as justifiable reason to abort, must be clearly stated and maintained. However, the ?frivolous? abortion for sex selection of to prevent discomfiture during a planned vacation must be declared illegal. Abortion because of rape, incest, fear of a probably genetic disease, or great familial stress must be left to individual conscience in our pluralistic society, without legal intrusion into the patient-physician relationship.

The article also state in no uncertain terms several times that if we fear suicide, there is an obligation to abort.

Also, this tidbit: My father-in-law, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, felt very strongly that allowing government to legislate in any area of morals and ethics gives them a toe-hold in religion, and if you let them in a little bit, the government will begin toexpand its role in this area and start less - lating what is proper to teach and what isproper to do in areligious context. Now, Rabbi Feinstein had lived some 10 to 15 years under Stalin and his experience of the Russian government's total involvement in the religious life ofthe Jew was so traumatic that he held fast to the idea that we should keep the government away from religion even in those instances where its legislation might seem to be supportive of the Torah point of view. For Rabbi Feinstein, the complete separation of church and state, was absolutely necessary for the survival of any minority group. What is the right approach? I really don't know. I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state and I believe that minority religious rights are best protected if government protects the rights of each individual to practice his religion without imposing any restrictions. I don't want to be the one making a decision between the Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion and Rabbi Feinstein's opinion, but I lean inthe direction of Rabbi Feinstein. Perhaps there is a little nepotism at work here.

(same source as above).

Offline Shkop

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #323 on: May 16, 2019, 03:33:18 PM »
Here are 2 nice Q&A's from R' Avigdor Miller ztl.

https://torasavigdor.org/rav-avigdor-miller-on-separation-of-church-and-state/

https://torasavigdor.org/rav-avigdor-miller-on-joining-the-fight-against-antisemitism/

In the first he discusses separation of church and state. He says that we want religion in politics.
In the second he lambastes Jewish organizations fighting antisemitism that advocate for gays and abortion because everyone should have free rights.
A democracy is a form of government, not an intrinsic truth

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #324 on: May 16, 2019, 05:42:34 PM »
Also, this tidbit: My father-in-law, the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, felt very strongly that allowing government to legislate in any area of morals and ethics gives them a toe-hold in religion, and if you let them in a little bit, the government will begin toexpand its role in this area and start less - lating what is proper to teach and what isproper to do in areligious context. Now, Rabbi Feinstein had lived some 10 to 15 years under Stalin and his experience of the Russian government's total involvement in the religious life ofthe Jew was so traumatic that he held fast to the idea that we should keep the government away from religion even in those instances where its legislation might seem to be supportive of the Torah point of view. For Rabbi Feinstein, the complete separation of church and state, was absolutely necessary for the survival of any minority group. What is the right approach? I really don't know. I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state and I believe that minority religious rights are best protected if government protects the rights of each individual to practice his religion without imposing any restrictions. I don't want to be the one making a decision between the Lubavitcher Rebbe's opinion and Rabbi Feinstein's opinion, but I lean inthe direction of Rabbi Feinstein. Perhaps there is a little nepotism at work here.

(same source as above).

How do either of these quotes support this statement;
To echo this, I don't think a single mainstream posek in the world would require a woman to carry her rapist's baby unwillingly rather than get an abortion in the first 40 days.

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #325 on: May 16, 2019, 05:47:15 PM »
How do either of these quotes support this statement;
I already quoted a summary of the tzeiz Eliezer above. Do you have a source that abortion is prohibited even in the case of rape?

Offline shaulyaakov

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #326 on: May 16, 2019, 05:49:03 PM »
Moreover, Rav tendler wouldn't have said the government should stay out of deciding abortion law in the case of rape if he thought it was assur for non Jews.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #327 on: May 16, 2019, 08:59:17 PM »
Moreover, Rav tendler wouldn't have said the government should stay out of deciding abortion law in the case of rape if he thought it was assur for non Jews.
he actually comes out and says he prefers the government not be in the business of enforcing 7 mitzvos bnei noach

Offline doodle

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #328 on: May 16, 2019, 10:09:01 PM »
Moreover, Rav tendler wouldn't have said the government should stay out of deciding abortion law in the case of rape if he thought it was assur for non Jews.
So ... after you read Rav Tendlers opinion , you than decided what every Posek probably holds .
You never even PMd me for source material. .
Good bye !
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Abortion = Murder?
« Reply #329 on: May 16, 2019, 10:16:01 PM »
I already quoted a summary of the tzeiz Eliezer above. Do you have a source that abortion is prohibited even in the case of rape?

אגרות משה חושן משפט חלק ב' סוף ס' עא amongst many others