Author Topic: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US  (Read 32833 times)

Online iwlw2

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2017, 11:04:43 AM »
And of course non citizens don't have the same rights as citizens,  and its a privilege to come here.  Tell that to the boatloads of Jewish refugees who were sent back to nazi Europe
Not to pick on you specifically, but this point is one that while I understand it somewhat, seems to be a bit stretched. Do you or anyone else really believe that just because someone in todays world is cracking down on Muslims that means theres only a short distance to cracking down on Jews??? Sure, halacha hi beyadua she'esav sonei leyaakov, and persecution of us Jews even in America is possible at any time and for any reason, but I think its a still a big leap to say that someone who is trying to restrict the people and religion that espouse hatred of Western civilization and values, not to mention Jews, might try to come after us by that same token. When Jewish people are committing mass murders in the name of their religion (misguided or not) and are clearly the greatest threat to normal, sane people living peaceful lives, than sure, Trump might make Jewish visits and immigration to America much more restrictive too. But I dont see how that follows automatically at all. You can't say that singling out one religion automatically means the increased liklihood of singling out other religions, if the religion being singled out is different than the rest by (at a minimum) containing within it large and identifiable segments that are liable to start shooting and blowing people up that they dont agree with......

Offline thaber

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2017, 11:08:30 AM »
Not to pick on you specifically, but this point is one that while I understand it somewhat, seems to be a bit stretched. Do you or anyone else really believe that just because someone in todays world is cracking down on Muslims that means theres only a short distance to cracking down on Jews??? Sure, halacha hi beyadua she'esav sonei leyaakov, and persecution of us Jews even in America is possible at any time and for any reason, but I think its a still a big leap to say that someone who is trying to restrict the people and religion that espouse hatred of Western civilization and values, not to mention Jews, might try to come after us by that same token. When Jewish people are committing mass murders in the name of their religion (misguided or not) and are clearly the greatest threat to normal, sane people living peaceful lives, than sure, Trump might make Jewish visits and immigration to America much more restrictive too. But I dont see how that follows automatically at all. You can't say that singling out one religion automatically means the increased liklihood of singling out other religions, if the religion being singled out is different than the rest by (at a minimum) containing within it large and identifiable segments that are liable to start shooting and blowing people up that they dont agree with......
To answer your question,  which I now understand may not be pertinent to the actual facts,  Yes,  I really believe that.  That's one of the beautiful things about the USA,  and it can be destroyed.  Rav Moshe speaks about this in several places. 

Offline David Smith

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2017, 11:08:38 AM »
Not to pick on you specifically, but this point is one that while I understand it somewhat, seems to be a bit stretched. Do you or anyone else really believe that just because someone in todays world is cracking down on Muslims that means theres only a short distance to cracking down on Jews??? Sure, halacha hi beyadua she'esav sonei leyaakov, and persecution of us Jews even in America is possible at any time and for any reason, but I think its a still a big leap to say that someone who is trying to restrict the people and religion that espouse hatred of Western civilization and values, not to mention Jews, might try to come after us by that same token. When Jewish people are committing mass murders in the name of their religion (misguided or not) and are clearly the greatest threat to normal, sane people living peaceful lives, than sure, Trump might make Jewish visits and immigration to America much more restrictive too. But I dont see how that follows automatically at all. You can't say that singling out one religion automatically means the increased liklihood of singling out other religions, if the religion being singled out is different than the rest by (at a minimum) containing within it large and identifiable segments that are liable to start shooting and blowing people up that they dont agree with......

Aka the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Online Yehuda57

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Re: Re: Lyft
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2017, 11:09:25 AM »
+1. sounds ridiculous, almost random coming from a taxi service company.
Not random at all. #Deleteuber was a number 1 trending topic yesterday, because Uber didn't join the taxi driver strike from NY airports yesterday, even advertising cheap rates (they did not implement a surge). This is lyfts way of capitalizing on people's outrage at Uber's capitalizing on a strike.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Online yuds70

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Re: Re: Lyft
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2017, 11:14:33 AM »
Not random at all. #Deleteuber was a number 1 trending topic yesterday, because Uber didn't join the taxi driver strike from NY airports yesterday, even advertising cheap rates (they did not implement a surge). This is lyfts way of capitalizing on people's outrage at Uber's capitalizing on a strike.
True true. It looks like it's all about business to me
Make stuff happen.

Online iwlw2

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2017, 11:20:36 AM »
To answer your question,  which I now understand may not be pertinent to the actual facts,  Yes,  I really believe that.  That's one of the beautiful things about the USA,  and it can be destroyed.  Rav Moshe speaks about this in several places.
As I wrote, I certainly agree with that and it can happen at any time. I just dont see how this is logically and al pi derech hateva, in any way a precursor to that, since there is no logical or any other kind of leap automatically from Muslims to Jews. Care to explain further?

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Offline Ergel

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2017, 11:26:03 AM »
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/156532225711/the-persuasion-filter-and-immigration

"Trump’s temporary immigration ban set a mental anchor in your brain that is frankly shocking. It will make his eventual permanent immigration plan (”extreme vetting”) look tame by comparison. The Persuasion Filter says that’s his strategy. Because that’s ALWAYS his strategy. He acts the same way every time. He wrote a book about it. He talks about it publicly. Then he does it right in front of us, over and over. And no matter how many times he does it, half the country still thinks the opening offer is the real one."

Giving him way too much credit.

Besides, leave it Guliani to play his hand
http://mediamatters.org/video/2017/01/29/rudy-giuliani-brags-he-crafted-trumps-muslim-ban/215163
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline aygart

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2017, 11:26:29 AM »
As I wrote, I certainly agree with that and it can happen at any time. I just dont see how this is logically and al pi derech hateva, in any way a precursor to that, since there is no logical or any other kind of leap automatically from Muslims to Jews. Care to explain further?
It is not a direct precursor in any way, but once religion is used in one way it can be used in another as well. Whenever there has been discrimination against a religion Jews have always eventually ended up on the receiving end of it. I mentioned this during the election as well. On the other hand, this is NOT directly a religion based order. It is based on countries known to be terrorist havens.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Ergel

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2017, 11:30:21 AM »
While reserving absolute judgment on this ban while waiting to see what comes next, I would like to make a couple of points. Firstly, I dont understand why this is such a major surprise (or at least the media make it out to be so) if Trump explicitly promised and campaigned about doing this. Which brings me to my second point. We have become so accustomed to politicians making empty promises, we are now shocked when they actually do what they said they would. And while we need to wait and see what form the overall immigration policy will take under the Trump administration (after all, this is a temporary action hopefully to give a chance to figure out how to fix what is clearly a broken immigration system vis a vis Muslim radicals getting in either as refugees or visitors or even green card holders), one thing that is definitely refreshing is having a President who actually hits the ground running and is getting right to work on implementing the agenda that clearly Americans voted for in electing him.
Funny that the argument for Trump when he was making these crazy promises was that the MAM takes him literally but not seriously, but the public was taking him seriously but not literally. And now that he is actually doing these things, it's why are you surprised that he's following through on his promises
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline Ergel

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2017, 11:30:59 AM »
It is not a direct precursor in any way, but once religion is used in one way it can be used in another as well. Whenever there has been discrimination against a religion Jews have always eventually ended up on the receiving end of it. I mentioned this during the election as well. On the other hand, this is NOT directly a religion based order. It is based on countries known to be terrorist havens.
Giving him way too much credit.

Besides, leave it Guliani to play his hand
http://mediamatters.org/video/2017/01/29/rudy-giuliani-brags-he-crafted-trumps-muslim-ban/215163
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Online iwlw2

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2017, 11:33:08 AM »
It is not a direct precursor in any way, but once religion is used in one way it can be used in another as well. Whenever there has been discrimination against a religion Jews have always eventually ended up on the receiving end of it. I mentioned this during the election as well. On the other hand, this is NOT directly a religion based order. It is based on countries known to be terrorist havens.
I can see that point, however I would argue that given todays realities, the overwhelming reasons for using Islam as a basis for policy simply do not apply at all to other religions. So while I agree that perhaps it does give a bit more of an opening to those who are predisposed to hate Jews to try to use that as  a religion-based basis of policy, I dont think its significantly more than the already existing bias that they have and their desire to act on it, so Id rather take whatever possible increased safety and security may come about from this policy (whether the particular policy as constructed offers any increase is an open question and a different discussion).
As far as it not really being religion based rather country based, that just a fact which we dont want to let get in the way of this particular argument.... ;)

Offline aygart

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2017, 11:34:31 AM »

I am not sure what you are trying to say
Feelings don't care about your facts

Online iwlw2

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2017, 11:34:52 AM »
Funny that the argument for Trump when he was making these crazy promises was that the MAM takes him literally but not seriously, but the public was taking him seriously but not literally. And now that he is actually doing these things, it's why are you surprised that he's following through on his promises
As aygart correctly pointed out, this is not a Muslim ban and as such NOT a literal carrying out of what he said, but certainly a serious step.....

Online yuneeq

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2017, 11:38:19 AM »
1. fully agree
2. It only takes slight changes. The concept is similar.

2. It requires huge changes and the concept is not similar.
Jew were religiously persecuted and would protected by the law.
AAnd no reason to fall for the slipper slope fallacy.

Offline aygart

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2017, 11:46:40 AM »
2. It requires huge changes and the concept is not similar.
Jew were religiously persecuted and would protected by the law.
AAnd no reason to fall for the slipper slope fallacy.
It is not a question of slippery slope. It is that throughout history whatever religion was a criteria for anything at all it ended up being to the detriment of the Jews. Immigration is an especially sensitive part of it. In recent centuries it has affected Ashkenezim much more than Sefardim.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline David Smith

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2017, 11:51:39 AM »
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Online yuneeq

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2017, 11:55:43 AM »
It is not a question of slippery slope. It is that throughout history whatever religion was a criteria for anything at all it ended up being to the detriment of the Jews. Immigration is an especially sensitive part of it. In recent centuries it has affected Ashkenezim much more than Sefardim.

Sefardim had a very hard time immigrating as well. There was no boats sent back, but many were denied entry and ended up traveling to South America, or were murdered in their home country for planning to leave.

Either way this policy has nothing to do with Jews so no reason to bring them into this discussion.

Offline David Smith

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2017, 11:59:27 AM »



Either way this policy has nothing to do with Jews so no reason to bring them into this discussion.

+1

If you're against it, you should be against it because it's wrong or being implemented incorrectly or unfairly, not because it may have a negative impact to yourself. Thinking about how easily it can happen to you just puts things in a different light and helps you relate to those being wronged by a policy or action.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline aradisc

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Re: Trump banning 7 major Muslim countries citizens entry into the US
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2017, 12:01:34 PM »
2. Those boatloads of Jewish refugees would've been accepted nowadays under Trumps laws. So not sure what you're getting at.
The belief that allowing heavily-vetted refugees in will bring in terrorists in disguise is a direct parallel to concerns about Jews being a "fifth column" in the 1940s. Replace "Nazi spy" with "terrorist": (click date at bottom of tweet to view articles) Invalid Tweet ID
AAnd no reason to fall for the slipper slope fallacy.

It's starting to get a little slippery out there: https://www.commentarymagazine.com/politics-ideas/the-white-house-holocaust-horror/