Author Topic: Rabbis Walk From Brooklyn To The Bronx On Shabbos (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 8029 times)

Online skyguy918

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http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/rabbis-hike-15-miles-brooklyn-bronx-weekly-lead-synagogue-article-1.953864
I don't get it. It says he's made the trip 50 times since '08. So that means they only go on certain occasions? Or they normally sleep there and walk when they have to?

Also, I'm very curious about the less than optimal route (says he took the Williamsburg Bridge and then 1st Ave all the way through Manhattan). Is that to avoid tchum issues?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 01:54:58 PM by Dan »

Offline henche

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Offline grodnoking

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2017, 10:51:13 PM »
I wouldn't cross the bridges.  Seems like a tchum shabbos issue.
AFAIK as long as you can technically get there without walking out of the techum you are allowed to take the shorter route even if it means walking over a bridge more than 2000 Amos.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 12:22:53 AM »
I wouldn't cross the bridges.  Seems like a tchum shabbos issue.
it does not look like that to me but I will make some measurements tomorrow. Google maps sends walkers the route they take.
AFAIK as long as you can technically get there without walking out of the techum you are allowed to take the shorter route even if it means walking over a bridge more than 2000 Amos.
That is a very untrue rule even though as a practical matter it is often the case for other reasons.
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Online skyguy918

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 02:58:51 AM »
This is the route described in the article:
https://goo.gl/maps/X1enYAJ5kKD2
And this is the shortest suggested route from Google:
https://goo.gl/maps/ee1Lppevpx42

So it seems pretty clear they're taking a less than optimal route, perhaps to avoid the RFK bridge (that was the question I asked when the link was first posted). Using Maps measurement tool, it looks like the East River is less than 2000 feet across where the Williamsburg Bridge is. I don't know exactly where you'd end up measuring in that situation, but even with the strictest shiur for an amah, there's probably enough extra that it's not a problem. The individual spans on the RFK bridge are even shorter than that, but it's hard to know where to measure there.

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 07:44:09 AM »
This is the route described in the article:
https://goo.gl/maps/X1enYAJ5kKD2
And this is the shortest suggested route from Google:
https://goo.gl/maps/ee1Lppevpx42

So it seems pretty clear they're taking a less than optimal route, perhaps to avoid the RFK bridge (that was the question I asked when the link was first posted). Using Maps measurement tool, it looks like the East River is less than 2000 feet across where the Williamsburg Bridge is. I don't know exactly where you'd end up measuring in that situation, but even with the strictest shiur for an amah, there's probably enough extra that it's not a problem. The individual spans on the RFK bridge are even shorter than that, but it's hard to know where to measure there.
Yes, you are right. I was not looking at that difference and for some reason thought they meant the Whitestone which is significantly longer. Either way I measured it and tchumin is not an issue with any of the bridges (including the Whitestone and the Throgs Neck) according to the psakim of R Moshe Feinstein, R' Yaakov Kamenetsky, the Chazon Ish, R' Bloi, R' Falk among others. If someone is not relying on their psak the Williamsburg Bridge is a problem as well.
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Offline henche

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 09:55:59 AM »
AFAIK as long as you can technically get there without walking out of the techum you are allowed to take the shorter route even if it means walking over a bridge more than 2000 Amos.

I didn't know that, but how do you get from Brooklyn to the Bronx without crossing the East River or Long Island Sound, any of which are easily wide enough to make the Manhattan and the Bronx a different city from Brooklyn?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 10:40:49 AM »
Yes, you are right. I was not looking at that difference and for some reason thought they meant the Whitestone which is significantly longer. Either way I measured it and tchumin is not an issue with any of the bridges (including the Whitestone and the Throgs Neck) according to the psakim of R Moshe Feinstein, R' Yaakov Kamenetsky, the Chazon Ish, R' Bloi, R' Falk among others. If someone is not relying on their psak the Williamsburg Bridge is a problem as well.
citations would be greatly appreciated.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline aygart

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 10:41:54 AM »
I didn't know that, but how do you get from Brooklyn to the Bronx without crossing the East River or Long Island Sound, any of which are easily wide enough to make the Manhattan and the Bronx a different city from Brooklyn?

It was better that way since it is not a true rule. In a city shaped like a keshes (rainbow) one may walk through the city but if the ends are more than 4000 apart he may not go from end to end.

Even though the distance across the rivers is more than siv'im vshirayim since the ribua of each overlaps that connects them according to rov poskim.
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2017, 10:52:43 AM »
citations would be greatly appreciated.
It is based on a number a different psakim of theirs which I would need to look up. R Moshe is mpi shmua, R Yaakov is in a kuntres put out by the New Square Kollel in the 80s (I think) in conjunction with other Monsey/New Square poskim including R Neishlos and R Taubenfeld. The Cazon Ish I neeed to look up. It is also quoted by R Chaim Kanievsky in Shone Halachos. R Bloi is in Nesivos Hashabbos but I need to look up exactly where. R Falk is in tshuvos. I measure tchumin on a very regular basis in conjunction with the poskim in lakewood (primarily Rav Forscheimer and Rav S. M. Katz) based on the guidance of Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky and Rav Shlomo Miller.
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 11:30:43 AM »
It was better that way since it is not a true rule. In a city shaped like a keshes (rainbow) one may walk through the city but if the ends are more than 4000 apart he may not go from end to end.

Even though the distance across the rivers is more than siv'im vshirayim since the ribua of each overlaps that connects them according to rov poskim.
I claim total ignorance on the subject, though pointing that the width of the East River is less that 2000 amos didn't seem relevant at all (as that wouldn't extend the tchum if I understand correctly).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 11:38:03 AM »
I claim total ignorance on the subject, though pointing that the width of the East River is less that 2000 amos didn't seem relevant at all (as that wouldn't extend the tchum if I understand correctly).
That is correct. It is not really relevant in our case. If Manhattan would be considered a separate city then we would need to start counting 2000 amos. Once you start that you are very limited and will reach 2000 very quickly. The only way to allow get there is to consider them to be one city. For that 2000 is rarely relevant.
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 11:44:26 AM »
That is correct. It is not really relevant in our case. If Manhattan would be considered a separate city then we would need to start counting 2000 amos. Once you start that you are very limited and will reach 2000 very quickly. The only way to allow get there is to consider them to be one city. For that 2000 is rarely relevant.
So could you please educate this layman, what makes Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx be considered one city for tchum Shabbos?

I presume that Staten Island is definitely outside tchum shabbos.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 11:45:24 AM »
That is correct. It is not really relevant in our case. If Manhattan would be considered a separate city then we would need to start counting 2000 amos. Once you start that you are very limited and will reach 2000 very quickly. The only way to allow get there is to consider them to be one city. For that 2000 is rarely relevant.
So my measuring the bridge was misguided, but the underlying question (why would Williamsburg bridge route be better than the shorter RFK bridge route) still stands? Or does your explanation about kehshes/ribua apply to one and not the other?

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 11:47:20 AM »
So my measuring the bridge was misguided, but the underlying question (why would Williamsburg bridge route be better than the shorter RFK bridge route) still stands? Or does your explanation about kehshes/ribua apply to one and not the other?
It could be that the Williamsburg bridge route is simply more pedestrian friendly, especially in uncomfortable weather.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2017, 11:50:27 AM »
So could you please educate this layman, what makes Manhattan, Brooklyn and the Bronx be considered one city for tchum Shabbos?

I presume that Staten Island is definitely outside tchum shabbos.
Since the ribua overlaps. The basic idea is that we square off most cities to a straight North South East west rectangle. By the corners extending over another city that will usually connect them.

Regarding Staten Island it looks close to me and would take work.
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2017, 11:51:00 AM »
So my measuring the bridge was misguided, but the underlying question (why would Williamsburg bridge route be better than the shorter RFK bridge route) still stands? Or does your explanation about kehshes/ribua apply to one and not the other?
I don't see a difference in tchumin between the 2
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2017, 11:53:37 AM »
Since the ribua overlaps. The basic idea is that we square off most cities to a straight North South East west rectangle. By the corners extending over another city that will usually connect them.

Regarding Staten Island it looks close to me and would take work.
Do you have a map to illustrate that ribua concept for NYC?
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Online AsherO

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2017, 12:00:17 PM »
The basic idea is that we square off most cities to a straight North South East west rectangle. By the corners extending over another city that will usually connect them.

Very interesting. How does Ribua work? Can it be rectangular? Does it have to be aligned to Longitude/Latitude or can it be diagonal?
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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2017, 12:05:51 PM »
Do you have a map to illustrate that ribua concept for NYC?
I would rather not do that since it would take some time to make it precise and I do not want to post one that is imprecise.

Very interesting. How does Ribua work? Can it be rectangular? Does it have to be aligned to Longitude/Latitude or can it be diagonal?
This is getting well past what is appropriate for this forum. The rules are somewhat complex and should only be used by someone who is familiar with the ins and outs of their practical application anyhow. The short answer to both is usually but not always.
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