Author Topic: Federal Tax Deductions (Split From Interesting Articles)  (Read 10704 times)

Offline good sam

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2017, 11:17:01 PM »


That's pretty cynical. A lot of tax policy is about lobbying,  but most really is about what the govt thinks is fair.  Like that you pay more (a lot more) if you have greater ability to pay.   State taxes goes right to ability to pay.

Huh?

What Aygart said is absolutely correct. No tax on money that's going to pay taxes.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2017, 01:03:05 AM »
That's pretty cynical. A lot of tax policy is about lobbying,  but most really is about what the govt thinks is fair.  Like that you pay more (a lot more) if you have greater ability to pay.   State taxes goes right to ability to pay.  So does dependents,  including spouse.
If the IRC was about fairness, it would be less than 10 pages long, and your tax return would fit on a postcard.

The IRC is one of the greatest sources of power, which is why it is so long. It should be scrapped in its entirety, and rewritten, rather than just amended with more and more pages.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2017, 05:21:22 AM »
Go back to economics 201.

The biggest challenge facing major economies is an aging workforce and shrinking population (look up those issues for Japan, Russia, Germany and France).

Why do you think Germany is so welcoming to "refugees"? It's a quick fix to counter shrinking population and workforce (though it has unintended consequences).
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״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline JTZ

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2017, 05:38:12 AM »
If the IRC was about fairness, it would be less than 10 pages long, and your tax return would fit on a postcard.

The IRC is one of the greatest sources of power, which is why it is so long. It should be scrapped in its entirety, and rewritten, rather than just amended with more and more pages.
+1
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2017, 08:37:23 AM »
Why else do you think there are tax benefits for kids, childcare, etc?
It's used to promote things deemed beneficial for the country in the long-run.

Can you point to any legislative history that supports your point? When these exemptions were enacted around 1913 they said it was done based on a rough calculation of ability to pay. First there were personal exemptions for spouses and they later added dependents too. It wasn't because they wanted to encourage large families.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2017, 08:39:21 AM »
Even without that reasoning since taxes are progressive the more dependants you have the higher your cost of living and therefore the less rich you are

True. And if I gamble away my money I'm also less rich.

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2017, 08:41:15 AM »
Can you point to any legislative history that supports your point? When these exemptions were enacted around 1913 they said it was done based on a rough calculation of ability to pay. First there were personal exemptions for spouses and they later added dependents too. It wasn't because they wanted to encourage large families.
How does charity point to ability to pay?

From what I learned in my tax classes a lot of it is designed based on ability to pay and a lot of it is based on things deemed good for society, like charity, home ownership, marriage, and children.
And of course lobbying plays a role too.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online aygart

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2017, 08:43:12 AM »
How does charity point to ability to pay?

From what I learned in my tax classes a lot of it is designed based on ability to pay and a lot of it is based on things deemed good for society, like charity, home ownership, marriage, and children.
And of course lobbying plays a role too.
What is good for society is determined by lobbying
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2017, 08:44:39 AM »
What is good for society is determined by lobbying
Perhaps. But it does need to fit into that mold.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2017, 08:58:05 AM »
How does charity point to ability to pay?

From what I learned in my tax classes a lot of it is designed based on ability to pay and a lot of it is based on things deemed good for society, like charity, home ownership, marriage, and children.
And of course lobbying plays a role too.

You were taught wrong with respect to the personal exemption. There is no legislative history supporting that claim.

Offline henche

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2017, 10:28:44 AM »
If the IRC was about fairness, it would be less than 10 pages long, and your tax return would fit on a postcard.

The IRC is one of the greatest sources of power, which is why it is so long. It should be scrapped in its entirety, and rewritten, rather than just amended with more and more pages.

That's not correct at all.  Financial transactions are very complicated, and are made more complicated because of tax planning.  It isn't possible to have a 10 page, or even a 100 page, tax code without allowing all sorts of shenanigans to get through. 


Offline henche

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2017, 10:30:47 AM »
How does charity point to ability to pay?

From what I learned in my tax classes a lot of it is designed based on ability to pay and a lot of it is based on things deemed good for society, like charity, home ownership, marriage, and children.
And of course lobbying plays a role too.

Yes, there are definitely other things in play, and the charitable deduction clearly is intended to encourage charity, on the thinking that if the govt loses 33 cents on your dollar to charity, then society nets 67.

But the core definitely is fairness and ability to pay (read: redistribution of wealth; no tax academic would use any other term than redistribution)

Online aygart

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2017, 10:33:26 AM »
That's not correct at all.  Financial transactions are very complicated, and are made more complicated because of tax planning.  It isn't possible to have a 10 page, or even a 100 page, tax code without allowing all sorts of shenanigans to get through. 


So his number of pages is wrong. The comlexities of tax code are used to encourage and discourage behavors as well as to promote pet projects. Tax credits for Solar are to promote the solar industry and were heavily lobbied for. Their effect was almost entirely about Solar profits. Each time such credits expire the prices drop to make the cost about the same as it was with the credits.

Obamacare is one of the best examples.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline henche

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2017, 10:47:15 AM »
So his number of pages is wrong. The comlexities of tax code are used to encourage and discourage behavors as well as to promote pet projects. Tax credits for Solar are to promote the solar industry and were heavily lobbied for. Their effect was almost entirely about Solar profits. Each time such credits expire the prices drop to make the cost about the same as it was with the credits.

Obamacare is one of the best examples.

Yes, but those are not the reason that the tax code is complex.  It's complex of PFICs, and transfer pricing, and partnerships; random little tax credits are a page each or less.  Obamacare probably takes up less than a page.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2017, 11:11:10 AM »
Do you believe that the tax benefits of being married should be taken away as well?

Can we split the thread off from here?

Call it "Federal Tax Discussion" or something like that
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2017, 11:21:52 AM »
What POLITICIANS DEEM is good for society is determined by lobbying
FTFY
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2017, 11:26:44 AM »
That's not correct at all.  Financial transactions are very complicated, and are made more complicated because of tax planning.  It isn't possible to have a 10 page, or even a 100 page, tax code without allowing all sorts of shenanigans to get through.
How about a consumption based Tax with no exemptions, but a personal allowance?

The main thing that enables tax planning and shenanigans is the complexity, and unfairness of the code. It is beyond me why the entire thing hadn't been scrapped years ago as unconstitutional, due to all the discrimination that exist in it.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline henche

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2017, 11:49:26 AM »
How about a consumption based Tax with no exemptions, but a personal allowance?

The main thing that enables tax planning and shenanigans is the complexity, and unfairness of the code. It is beyond me why the entire thing hadn't been scrapped years ago as unconstitutional, due to all the discrimination that exist in it.

That's one way of taxing people.  I'm not convinced it's more fair to tax consumption instead of income. 


Offline Menachem613

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Re: Federal Tax Deductions (Split From Interesting Articles)
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2017, 12:13:51 PM »
Aren't the poor worse off with a consumption tax?

Offline henche

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Re: Federal Tax Deductions (Split From Interesting Articles)
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2017, 12:15:14 PM »
Aren't the poor worse off with a consumption tax?

Can be progressive also.  Can say that if you spend 20k, it's zero, and then 10 percent until 40k, and then 20 percent until 60k, etc.