Author Topic: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 15785 times)

Offline aygart

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I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.

Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...
Now we came full circle. What I meant was as opposed to the hurt some above described.
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Offline yzj

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Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.

Have to disagree with you there, unless you are referring to the proximate cause. There are many abuse situations, learning disability, kids not cut out for the specific school etc. they are squeezed into, mental health issues, just to name a few root causes. Taavos may be the eventual trigger, but someone brought up in a healthy environment who feels happy, fulfilled, and comfortable with himself in all other ways in unlikely to go OTD because he also has unfulfilled taavos IMHO. I'm sure there are instances of normal people succumbing to their taavos but that's not representative of most OTD.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 09:51:22 AM by yzj »

Offline Dan

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In other words some people are on shakier ground and when the opportunity arises...

There's definitely what we can work on as a community to avoid some of the shaky ground situations.
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Offline ExGingi

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Have to disagree with you there, unless you are referring to the proximate cause. There are many abuse situations, learning disability, kids not cut out for the specific school etc. they are squeezed into, mental health issues, just to name a few root causes. Taavos may be the eventual trigger, but someone brought up in a healthy environment who feels happy, fulfilled, and comfortable with himself in all other ways in unlikely to go OTD because he also has unfulfilled taavos IMHO. I'm sure there are instances of normal people succumbing to their taavos but that's not representative of most OTD.

Which goes back to what I said
I think we should differentiate between reason, trigger, facilitating factors, and reaction (or lack thereof), which are all part of the OTD issue.

IMHO there is only one reason across the board. It is לנורא עלילה על בני אדם - ניסיונות!

When discussing triggers, there are quite a few out there. I don't think what you mentioned as 90% is actually of any significant number. Common triggers mentioned are: abuse (physical, sexual or emotional/mental), lack of Sholom Bayis, cognitive dissonance observed.

And regarding
There's definitely what we can work on as a community to avoid some of the shaky ground situations.

I said:
... often we are very limited in controlling the triggers, we definitely do have the ability and tools to deal with the facilitating factors, and more so with the proper responses. And if applied in a timely and correct manner, it could help in most cases.
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Offline mgarfin

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2017, 01:46:43 PM »
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

Im not sure what the situation is in Chabad but in the general frum community, the main cause, is a lack of connection to Judaism/God.
Teenagers, I see coming out of chader, see yidishkayt as a set of rules, nothing deeper, and when that is your yidishkayt you fall for תאוות very easily.
Most don't go OTD, but bring up families that have no connection to God. This way of Judaism isn't sustainable.

Offline joe1234

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Incorrect. Again, I don't think this could is real. But these kinds of things are happening, RL
These kinds of things... are definitely happening, but again not on a full-long term scale. I just don't see such a story lasting for such a long time because; a. You can't hide forever, b. After a while you don't want to live a double life, c. Impossible that a couple stays married like this for long....

Offline joe1234

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R' Elchonon washerman explains that really there is no logical reason not to believe in g-d... the only reason people don't believe and go OTD is because of taavas oilam hazeh, much like a judge who accepts bribery can't judge reasonably. He then explains that the mitzvah to believe in g-d is not just to believe( because it doesn't make sense to command a non-believer to believe) but rather to control his taavas and therefore automatically believe.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2017, 02:02:43 PM »
Im not sure what the situation is in Chabad but in the general frum community, the main cause, is a lack of connection to Judaism/God.
Teenagers, I see coming out of chader, see yidishkayt as a set of rules, nothing deeper, and when that is your yidishkayt you fall for תאוות very easily.
Most don't go OTD, but bring up families that have no connection to God. This way of Judaism isn't sustainable.
Unfortunately, that exists everywhere.

Maybe Chabad/Lubavitch as a philosophy, and ideally if we would all educate accordingly, would have less of that problem. But unfortunately, so many of us do things "just because", and education (in schools and within families) isn't always up to where it should be. תורת החסידות was revealed in order to show how every Yid is connected and can connect with השי"ת. In our generation, it needs to be adapted and introduced at much earlier ages IMHO.

One of my favorites regarding being properly connected is http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3140489/jewish/-.htm
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Offline gozalim

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Unfortunately, that exists everywhere.

Maybe Chabad/Lubavitch as a philosophy, and ideally if we would all educate accordingly, would have less of that problem. But unfortunately, so many of us do things "just because", and education (in schools and within families) isn't always up to where it should be. תורת החסידות was revealed in order to show how every Yid is connected and can connect with השי"ת. In our generation, it needs to be adapted and introduced at much earlier ages IMHO.

One of my favorites regarding being properly connected is http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3140489/jewish/-.htm

I don't believe the philosophical disconnect within Chabad is anywhere as close to what it is in some other places, if for no other reason than that our curricula includes more of these topics than some others do. (not that chabad youth don't have challenges of their own...)

CMIIW but I was under the impression that Satmar chinuch for example, בשיטה avoids getting into hashkafah questions?

Offline ExGingi

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I don't believe the philosophical disconnect within Chabad is anywhere as close to what it is in some other places, if for no other reason than that our curricula includes more of these topics than some others do. (not that chabad youth don't have challenges of their own...)

CMIIW but I was under the impression that Satmar chinuch for example, בשיטה avoids getting into hashkafah questions?
Have you ever heard the expression "getting through the system"? If you have (I've heard it more than once), for anyone that has that attitude, a curriculum is meaningless. I can also tell you, that a curriculum without proper משפיעים, could be extremely meaningless.

IDK about Satmar, but I once had a Belzer bochur sitting next to me on a flight back from TLV, and what you describe seems to be their attitude.
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Offline gozalim

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Have you ever heard the expression "getting through the system"? If you have (I've heard it more than once), for anyone that has that attitude, a curriculum is meaningless. I can also tell you, that a curriculum without proper משפיעים, could be extremely meaningless.

IDK about Satmar, but I once had a Belzer bochur sitting next to me on a flight back from TLV, and what you describe seems to be their attitude.
I believe that even just "getting through the system", one still possesses certain understandings on g-d, judaism, purpose, etc. though the "getting through the system" phrase is indicative of a deep lack of internalization of said beliefs. at the same time, at least on the intellectual front, many chabad kids would require more than the lightweight reading quoted in the article to knock them over. or just skip the "religious skeptic" part and go OTD without it...

Offline chevron

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #116 on: March 15, 2017, 03:48:48 PM »
Im not sure what the situation is in Chabad but in the general frum community, the main cause, is a lack of connection to Judaism/God.
Teenagers, I see coming out of chader, see yidishkayt as a set of rules, nothing deeper, and when that is your yidishkayt you fall for תאוות very easily.
Most don't go OTD, but bring up families that have no connection to God. This way of Judaism isn't sustainable.

THIS +1000000000

Judaism is a mix of theology, philosophy, passion, faith. Once the talmud was closed, dialogue ceased. When codification became the norm, judaism was basically about a lot of laws and how to follow them.

Mesorah is often taught very close minded, if the halacha isnt like a certain opinion, we dont focus on the other opinions.

The people talking in shull is yet another case in point, people dont pray because God wants us to, because man needs it, because we pray to request things, connect to God etc. Most pray by rote and routne

Offline chevron

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Regarding things in europe pre haskallah, people sinned but there was not many options as a jew in the shtetel

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #118 on: March 15, 2017, 03:59:32 PM »
Judaism is a mix of theology, philosophy, passion, faith. Once the talmud was closed, dialogue ceased. When codification became the norm, judaism was basically about a lot of laws and how to follow them.
Where did you get that idea from?

The people talking in shull is yet another case in point, people dont pray because God wants us to, because man needs it, because we pray to request things, connect to God etc. Most pray by rote and routne

I have stated more than once that talking in shul is one of the biggest problems (though it is actually somewhat of a revealing symptom of an underlying problem) we have in our community (at least where I go to shul).

If a kid goes to shul, where the aibershter comes 3 times a day, putting everything else aside (figuratively speaking), just to listen to yidden, how do we look if we turn around to talk to someone while מלך מלכי המלכים is right in front of us waiting to hear our davening?

To take it to the extreme, I once asked someone how he could expect his kid to keep shabbos, if his kid sees the father talk in Shul. We wouldn't do anything of the sort in front of a שר, a judge, or even a simple clerk listening to us, let alone a מלך בשר ודם, so how dare we do it to the most real מלך?
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Offline ExGingi

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Regarding things in europe pre haskallah, people sinned but there was not many options as a jew in the shtetel
Not the way I would phrase things, but absolutely terse and correct!

Throughout ALL generations, "frum" (term used for convenience) yidden were always in the minority - וחמושים עלו בני ישראל מארץ מצרים was the starting point of that.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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