Author Topic: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 16976 times)

Offline hvaces42

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Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.
Repost?
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.
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Offline Dan

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I wouldn't say that 90% of Taivos are of a sexual nature.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline hvaces42

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Not the way I would phrase things, but absolutely terse and correct!

Throughout ALL generations, "frum" (term used for convenience) yidden were always in the minority - וחמושים עלו בני ישראל מארץ מצרים was the starting point of that.
7000 "frum" jews in the days of Eliyahu.
But aftwr the churban bais sheini besides pockets of Saducees there werent that many "OTD"
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Offline hvaces42

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I wouldn't say that 90% of Taivos are of a sexual nature.
What other taivah leads one astray besides that? Food? Greed?
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Offline aygart

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What other taivah leads one astray besides that? Food? Greed?
money
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Offline hvaces42

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money
Thats covered in greed. And that doesn't cause people to go OTD. How many instances of chillul shabbos do you know that are done jist to have money...by people who grew up frum and made a conscious decision to leave frum life because of the money. A handful at most.
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Offline aygart

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Thats covered in greed. And that doesn't cause people to go OTD. How many instances of chillul shabbos do you know that are done jist to have money...by people who grew up frum and made a conscious decision to leave frum life because of the money. A handful at most.
That depends on the time periods you are looking at.
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Offline hvaces42

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That depends on the time periods you are looking at.
Present day orthodoxy. What other time period did you take my statement and Dan's statement to be talking about?
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Offline aygart

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Present day orthodoxy. What other time period did you take my statement and Dan's statement to be talking about?
You don't need to go back that far to find a time period when 100s and probably 1000s of times more people were leaving yiddishkeit than now in order to be "successful". It is just that this nisayon is not as great now since it is much easier to be successful while being shomer shabbos. The difference is simply which one is the greater nisayon here and now and not which nisayon is more likely to do it.
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Offline hvaces42

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You don't need to go back that far to find a time period when 100s and probably 1000s of times more people were leaving yiddishkeit than now in order to be "successful". It is just that this nisayon is not as great now since it is much easier to be successful while being shomer shabbos. The difference is simply which one is the greater nisayon here and now and not which nisayon is more likely to do it.
The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.
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Offline aygart

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The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.
That explains the ones in the 30s and 40s not the ones whose parent were moser nefesh to be shomer shabbos and their children went to college and left yiddiskeit at home to succeed as a professional in the 60s and 70s.
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Offline yuneeq

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The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.

The good ol' "No true Scotsman" fallacy
Live forever or die trying.

Offline elit

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Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.
Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

Offline mgarfin

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Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

But why is there pain for staying, when there is only rules its very painful but Judaism is rules plus plus.

Our problem isn't only with OTD, ppl not staying. What's with the half OTD, the ones that have nothing in them but don't leave the community for community.

Offline Denverite

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All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...