Author Topic: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)  (Read 16869 times)

Offline Dan

  • Administrator
  • Dansdeals Lifetime 50K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • **********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 53593
  • Total likes: 2403
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 16441
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: CLE
  • Programs: UA Global Services, AA Lifetime Plat, DL Dirt, SPG Plat, Hyatt Diamond, Fairmont Lifetime Plat, Hilton Diamond, Priority Club Plat, Avis Chairman, National EE, Hertz PC
All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...
ROFL
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

I am sure that it is a large portion. It is unlikely to have one defined cause. Just because someone had a difficult and hurtful otr abusive family experience (for example) doesn not have to mean leaving the community entirely.  It is a confluence of causes including the hurt as well as the fleeting happiness that they feel from filling their taivos. We can go around in circles to find what percentage is what. Keep in mind though, that over the years there have been many more than those who are leaving yiddishkeit today and left behind their family and community who did not have this pain as a contributing factor at all. They left simply to fulfill their taivos. So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years. Anyone who doesn't see that is looking from a very narrow perspective without seeing history at all. Many times more people left in my parent's generation than those who are leaving today and almost all left simply or taiva.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...
Dating? In Satmer?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile


But why is there pain for staying, when there is only rules its very painful but Judaism is rules plus plus.

Our problem isn't only with OTD, ppl not staying. What's with the half OTD, the ones that have nothing in them but don't leave the community for community.
As horrible as a sustem of rules can be i don't believe it's painful enough to cause people to leave it may lead to what you describe in your second paragraph which I'm not talking about


Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile


I am sure that it is a large portion. It is unlikely to have one defined cause. Just because someone had a difficult and hurtful otr abusive family experience (for example) doesn not have to mean leaving the community entirely.  It is a confluence of causes including the hurt as well as the fleeting happiness that they feel from filling their taivos. We can go around in circles to find what percentage is what. Keep in mind though, that over the years there have been many more than those who are leaving yiddishkeit today and left behind their family and community who did not have this pain as a contributing factor at all. They left simply to fulfill their taivos. So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years. Anyone who doesn't see that is looking from a very narrow perspective without seeing history at all. Many times more people left in my parent's generation than those who are leaving today and almost all left simply or taiva.
1) I didn't say there was one cause I just said there's a common denominator in virtually all of them and that is tremendous pain not taivah. Obviously there are exceptions but the very large majority leave because of pain.
2) I am only talking about the current generation obviously throughout history there were many different reasons need left yiddishkeit but those reasons are very often very different than today

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile


So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years.

Did you mean to write a different number than fifty? Where has this been proven thousands of times in the last fifty years?

Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 1894
  • Total likes: 152
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Dating? In Satmer?

Dude, relax it was a joke, although in all seriousness if that story is true as written, there most certainly was a reason they were matched together.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Dude, relax it was a joke, although in all seriousness if that story is true as written, there most certainly was a reason they were matched together.

Dude, relax it was a joke
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com

Did you mean to write a different number than fifty? Where has this been proven thousands of times in the last fifty years?
No I meant fifty as in the 60s 70s and 80s maybe sixty years to include the entire 60s.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
1) I didn't say there was one cause I just said there's a common denominator in virtually all of them and that is tremendous pain not taivah. Obviously there are exceptions but the very large majority leave because of pain.
2) I am only talking about the current generation obviously throughout history there were many different reasons need left yiddishkeit but those reasons are very often very different than today

That could be, but the statement that
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection
is simply not true. Once you get past that untrue premise you need to recalculate.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
No I meant fifty as in the 60s 70s and 80s maybe sixty years to include the entire 60s.
Can't speak for then but I'm skeptical...
That could be, but the statement thatis simply not true. Once you get past that untrue premise you need to recalculate.
I'm not sure what you mean I stand by that statement for this generation

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Can't speak for then but I'm skeptical...I'm not sure what you mean I stand by that statement for this generation
This is simply cognitive dissonance. YOu are skeptical that people left yiddishkeit in the 60s without the pain you describe? Maybe a broader view of history and life will help you in your contacts with these kids.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline elit

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2008
  • Posts: 1285
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile


This is simply cognitive dissonance. YOu are skeptical that people left yiddishkeit in the 60s without the pain you describe? Maybe a broader view of history and life will help you in your contacts with these kids.

Because I potentially disagree with you means I have a narrower view of life and history than you?

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6930
  • Total likes: 1590
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com

Because I potentially disagree with you means I have a narrower view of life and history than you?
If that is what you think happened with 100s maybe thousands of times the amount of people leaving yiddishkeit in college without the rebeliousness found in many current OTD kids then yes.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline yitzf

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 2590
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
If that is what you think happened with 100s maybe thousands of times the amount of people leaving yiddishkeit in college without the rebeliousness found in many current OTD kids then yes.

We dont need to go back to the 50's

r"l
https://www.ou.org/life/parenting/why-are-our-teens-going-off-derech-steven-pruzansky/
Quote
A new unpublished study recently brought to my attention has challenging implications for the Torah world – to wit, that a substantial number of graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat- or kashrut– observant within two years of their graduation.

Another study from last year reported the not-quite-shocking news that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvot.

Although IMO they aren't going off for intellectual reasons, its not only tayvos either. A lot of it has to do with letzonus, the constant mockery of anything holy or special and the permissible - anything goes - attitudes that breaks down the defenses.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:59:27 PM by yitzf »