NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)

[hvaces42]

Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.

Repost?

Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.

[Dan]

I wouldn't say that 90% of Taivos are of a sexual nature.

[hvaces42]

Not the way I would phrase things, but absolutely terse and correct!

Throughout ALL generations, "frum" (term used for convenience) yidden were always in the minority - וחמושים עלו בני ישראל מארץ מצרים was the starting point of that.

7000 "frum" jews in the days of Eliyahu.
But aftwr the churban bais sheini besides pockets of Saducees there werent that many "OTD"

[hvaces42]

I wouldn't say that 90% of Taivos are of a sexual nature.

What other taivah leads one astray besides that? Food? Greed?

[aygart]

What other taivah leads one astray besides that? Food? Greed?

money

[hvaces42]

money

Thats covered in greed. And that doesn't cause people to go OTD. How many instances of chillul shabbos do you know that are done jist to have money...by people who grew up frum and made a conscious decision to leave frum life because of the money. A handful at most.

[aygart]

Thats covered in greed. And that doesn't cause people to go OTD. How many instances of chillul shabbos do you know that are done jist to have money...by people who grew up frum and made a conscious decision to leave frum life because of the money. A handful at most.

That depends on the time periods you are looking at.

[hvaces42]

That depends on the time periods you are looking at.

Present day orthodoxy. What other time period did you take my statement and Dan's statement to be talking about?

[aygart]

Present day orthodoxy. What other time period did you take my statement and Dan's statement to be talking about?

You don't need to go back that far to find a time period when 100s and probably 1000s of times more people were leaving yiddishkeit than now in order to be "successful". It is just that this nisayon is not as great now since it is much easier to be successful while being shomer shabbos. The difference is simply which one is the greater nisayon here and now and not which nisayon is more likely to do it.

[hvaces42]

You don't need to go back that far to find a time period when 100s and probably 1000s of times more people were leaving yiddishkeit than now in order to be "successful". It is just that this nisayon is not as great now since it is much easier to be successful while being shomer shabbos. The difference is simply which one is the greater nisayon here and now and not which nisayon is more likely to do it.

The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.

[aygart]

The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.

That explains the ones in the 30s and 40s not the ones whose parent were moser nefesh to be shomer shabbos and their children went to college and left yiddiskeit at home to succeed as a professional in the 60s and 70s.

[yuneeq]

The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.

The good ol' "No true Scotsman" fallacy

[elit]

Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.

Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

[mgarfin]

Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

But why is there pain for staying, when there is only rules its very painful but Judaism is rules plus plus.

Our problem isn't only with OTD, ppl not staying. What's with the half OTD, the ones that have nothing in them but don't leave the community for community.

[Denverite]

All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...

[Dan]

All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...

ROFL

[aygart]

Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

I am sure that it is a large portion. It is unlikely to have one defined cause. Just because someone had a difficult and hurtful otr abusive family experience (for example) doesn not have to mean leaving the community entirely.  It is a confluence of causes including the hurt as well as the fleeting happiness that they feel from filling their taivos. We can go around in circles to find what percentage is what. Keep in mind though, that over the years there have been many more than those who are leaving yiddishkeit today and left behind their family and community who did not have this pain as a contributing factor at all. They left simply to fulfill their taivos. So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years. Anyone who doesn't see that is looking from a very narrow perspective without seeing history at all. Many times more people left in my parent's generation than those who are leaving today and almost all left simply or taiva.

[aygart]

All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...

Dating? In Satmer?

[elit]

But why is there pain for staying, when there is only rules its very painful but Judaism is rules plus plus.

Our problem isn't only with OTD, ppl not staying. What's with the half OTD, the ones that have nothing in them but don't leave the community for community.

As horrible as a sustem of rules can be i don't believe it's painful enough to cause people to leave it may lead to what you describe in your second paragraph which I'm not talking about

[elit]

I am sure that it is a large portion. It is unlikely to have one defined cause. Just because someone had a difficult and hurtful otr abusive family experience (for example) doesn not have to mean leaving the community entirely.  It is a confluence of causes including the hurt as well as the fleeting happiness that they feel from filling their taivos. We can go around in circles to find what percentage is what. Keep in mind though, that over the years there have been many more than those who are leaving yiddishkeit today and left behind their family and community who did not have this pain as a contributing factor at all. They left simply to fulfill their taivos. So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years. Anyone who doesn't see that is looking from a very narrow perspective without seeing history at all. Many times more people left in my parent's generation than those who are leaving today and almost all left simply or taiva.

1) I didn't say there was one cause I just said there's a common denominator in virtually all of them and that is tremendous pain not taivah. Obviously there are exceptions but the very large majority leave because of pain.
2) I am only talking about the current generation obviously throughout history there were many different reasons need left yiddishkeit but those reasons are very often very different than today