Author Topic: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!  (Read 77878 times)

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #560 on: April 24, 2017, 12:17:42 PM »
Well, it is posted in the Pesach War Stories Master Thread..
Right. But this is DDF where we go OT.  :) After all, haven't heard of soda bottling in Pesach programs.
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Offline grodnoking

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #561 on: April 24, 2017, 12:57:06 PM »
I don't recall seeing that you indicated that this was a KFP production.

Well, it is posted in the Pesach War Stories Master Thread..
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #562 on: April 24, 2017, 07:32:21 PM »

Maybe I didn't explain what happened fully. This mashkiach was supposed to open up the place for the goyim and turn on the machines. The goyim had the keys to the place to come in whenever they please and turned on the machines.

was this for a Pesach run (tmidi needed) or for a regular Kosher run? i.e. Coca Cola and most national year-round cold and all-parve locations don't have mashgichei t'midim in an all-kosher facility, just regular checks, access and yotzei v'nichnas at any time of day or night.
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Offline grodnoking

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #563 on: April 24, 2017, 07:33:19 PM »
was this for a Pesach run (tmidi needed) or for a regular Kosher run? i.e. Coca Cola and most national year-round cold and all-parve locations don't have mashgichei t'midim in an all-kosher facility, just regular checks, access and yotzei v'nichnas at any time of day or night.
Kosher L'Pesach run.
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Offline CS1

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #564 on: April 24, 2017, 07:37:51 PM »
Kosher L'Pesach run.

yes. That is definitely an issue if it was a KFP run, especially in a non-certified-Kosher plant. Some Mashgichim are paid $500-$600+ per day specifically to be there at the start of the run and to visually supervise all components. (This is why many KFP product cost more than similar year-round products.)
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #565 on: April 24, 2017, 07:38:59 PM »
was this for a Pesach run (tmidi needed) or for a regular Kosher run? i.e. Coca Cola and most national year-round cold and all-parve locations don't have mashgichei t'midim in an all-kosher facility, just regular checks, access and yotzei v'nichnas at any time of day or night.
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #566 on: April 24, 2017, 07:44:58 PM »
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them

there are many reasons why these circumstances are different from a Kashrus policy standpoint. One main Halachic reason for this is because all year, the items can be "batul b'shishim" and the products may still be kosher. For Pesach, even a mashehu is chometz.

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #567 on: April 24, 2017, 07:45:42 PM »
there are many reasons why these circumstances are different from a Kashrus policy standpoint. One main Halachic reason for this is because all year, the items can be "batul b'shishim" and the products may still be kosher. For Pesach, even a mashehu is chometz.
Not if it happened before pesach
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #568 on: April 24, 2017, 08:41:55 PM »
Not if it happened before pesach

if it's a worker eating a sandwich before Pesach during a pre-Pesach-run vs. a non-Pesach regular run, then it's definitely a lot more serious from a Kashrus standpoint. Therefore I believe that a Mashgiach temidi is needed from most KFP packing runs and not as many cold-Pareve packing runs.
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #569 on: April 24, 2017, 08:55:22 PM »
if it's a worker eating a sandwich before Pesach during a pre-Pesach-run vs. a non-Pesach regular run, then it's definitely a lot more serious from a Kashrus standpoint. Therefore I believe that a Mashgiach temidi is needed from most KFP packing runs and not as many cold-Pareve packing runs.
it should not be worse than him eating non kosher meat.
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Offline thaber

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #570 on: April 25, 2017, 09:39:30 AM »
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them
All ou P products have a tmidi, whether it makes sense or not. I'd imagine same is true of other agencies

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #571 on: April 25, 2017, 10:21:22 AM »
Not if it happened before pesach

Even before Pesach, Chametz wouldn't be Batel if it's B'ein (you can distinguish it).

it should not be worse than him eating non kosher meat.

As stated earlier in this thread, the Shiur for Chametz is a Mashehu, as opposed to meat which is a Kazayis (IINM).

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #572 on: April 25, 2017, 10:44:05 AM »
Even before Pesach, Chametz wouldn't be Batel if it's B'ein (you can distinguish it).

As stated earlier in this thread, the Shiur for Chametz is a Mashehu, as opposed to meat which is a Kazayis (IINM).
You mean that it would be chozer vnei'ur and therefore effectively still be bimashehu. THat would not apply to a drink production which would be lach bilach and therefore not chozer vinei'ur. That would be batel bishishim just like the flavor of meat.
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #573 on: April 25, 2017, 10:58:34 AM »
You mean that it would be chozer vnei'ur and therefore effectively still be bimashehu. THat would not apply to a drink production which would be lach bilach and therefore not chozer vinei'ur. That would be batel bishishim just like the flavor of meat.

A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #574 on: April 25, 2017, 11:01:38 AM »
A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
In theory you might be right, but practically when was the last time you encountered any solids in a soda bottle?
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #575 on: April 25, 2017, 11:12:52 AM »
A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
A crumb that you would not notice is certainly lach bilach. Even one that is noticeable when right in front but can't be seen in a huge container is lach bilach according to many poskim.
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #576 on: April 25, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
In theory you might be right, but practically when was the last time you encountered any solids in a soda bottle?

So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

A crumb that you would not notice is certainly lach bilach. Even one that is noticeable when right in front but can't be seen in a huge container is lach bilach according to many poskim.

For the last time, b'ein literally means visible.

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #577 on: April 25, 2017, 11:28:49 AM »
So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

For the last time, b'ein literally means visible.
There is no reason to be concerned about a piece of bread stuck in a bottle cap.
That depends how you define visible. A wheat kernel mixed into a sack is visible but not discernible and is batel b'shishim.

Bottom line is that there is no real concern of chometz bimashehu in a soda production which would require tmidi.
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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #578 on: April 25, 2017, 12:29:31 PM »
There is no reason to be concerned about a piece of bread stuck in a bottle cap.
That depends how you define visible. A wheat kernel mixed into a sack is visible but not discernible and is batel b'shishim.

I was under the impression that if it can be removed it's considered b'ein...

What's the wheat mixed into that it isn't discernible?

To be completely thorough though, (dry) wheat isn't chometz in and of itself.

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #579 on: April 25, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »
I was under the impression that if it can be removed it's considered b'ein...

What's the wheat mixed into that it isn't discernible?

To be completely thorough though, (dry) wheat isn't chometz in and of itself.
Other wheat kernels, but some are mivukaos or tzomchu
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