Author Topic: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!  (Read 59138 times)

Offline thaber

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #570 on: April 25, 2017, 09:39:30 AM »
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them
All ou P products have a tmidi, whether it makes sense or not. I'd imagine same is true of other agencies

Offline AsherO

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #571 on: April 25, 2017, 10:21:22 AM »
Not if it happened before pesach

Even before Pesach, Chametz wouldn't be Batel if it's B'ein (you can distinguish it).

it should not be worse than him eating non kosher meat.

As stated earlier in this thread, the Shiur for Chametz is a Mashehu, as opposed to meat which is a Kazayis (IINM).
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Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #572 on: April 25, 2017, 10:44:05 AM »
Even before Pesach, Chametz wouldn't be Batel if it's B'ein (you can distinguish it).

As stated earlier in this thread, the Shiur for Chametz is a Mashehu, as opposed to meat which is a Kazayis (IINM).
You mean that it would be chozer vnei'ur and therefore effectively still be bimashehu. THat would not apply to a drink production which would be lach bilach and therefore not chozer vinei'ur. That would be batel bishishim just like the flavor of meat.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #573 on: April 25, 2017, 10:58:34 AM »
You mean that it would be chozer vnei'ur and therefore effectively still be bimashehu. THat would not apply to a drink production which would be lach bilach and therefore not chozer vinei'ur. That would be batel bishishim just like the flavor of meat.

A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #574 on: April 25, 2017, 11:01:38 AM »
A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
In theory you might be right, but practically when was the last time you encountered any solids in a soda bottle?
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Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #575 on: April 25, 2017, 11:12:52 AM »
A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
A crumb that you would not notice is certainly lach bilach. Even one that is noticeable when right in front but can't be seen in a huge container is lach bilach according to many poskim.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #576 on: April 25, 2017, 11:18:41 AM »
In theory you might be right, but practically when was the last time you encountered any solids in a soda bottle?

So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

A crumb that you would not notice is certainly lach bilach. Even one that is noticeable when right in front but can't be seen in a huge container is lach bilach according to many poskim.

For the last time, b'ein literally means visible.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #577 on: April 25, 2017, 11:28:49 AM »
So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

For the last time, b'ein literally means visible.
There is no reason to be concerned about a piece of bread stuck in a bottle cap.
That depends how you define visible. A wheat kernel mixed into a sack is visible but not discernible and is batel b'shishim.

Bottom line is that there is no real concern of chometz bimashehu in a soda production which would require tmidi.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #578 on: April 25, 2017, 12:29:31 PM »
There is no reason to be concerned about a piece of bread stuck in a bottle cap.
That depends how you define visible. A wheat kernel mixed into a sack is visible but not discernible and is batel b'shishim.

I was under the impression that if it can be removed it's considered b'ein...

What's the wheat mixed into that it isn't discernible?

To be completely thorough though, (dry) wheat isn't chometz in and of itself.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #579 on: April 25, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »
I was under the impression that if it can be removed it's considered b'ein...

What's the wheat mixed into that it isn't discernible?

To be completely thorough though, (dry) wheat isn't chometz in and of itself.
Other wheat kernels, but some are mivukaos or tzomchu

Offline AsherO

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #580 on: April 25, 2017, 07:32:04 PM »
Other wheat kernels, but some are mivukaos or tzomchu

This isn't Gemara.

You generalized that Chametz is batel before Pesach, ostensibly as an explanation for why a KPF product wouldn't necessarily need a mashgiach tmidi. I offered you an exception which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Somehow I followed you down some rabbit-hole relating to one grains getting lost amongst another grain, even if you found an exception to my exception it doesn't change the fact that not all Chametz is batel before Pesach.
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #581 on: April 25, 2017, 07:34:41 PM »
So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

Do they have a mashgiach temidi at the production of the caps, or are all caps inspected by the mashgiach?

Bottom line, the need for a mashgiach temidi at KFP soda bottling is almost like the need for DW to have kids clean the nooks and crannies of furniture with toothbrushes and q-tips (after they have been thoroughly cleaned by conventional means). However, both make people happy and keep people busy. Some people are happy to see the mashgiach (and it keeps him busy), and others feel the need to know that the furniture was cleaned with a toothbrush and q-tip (which keeps the kids busy).

ETA: unless it's done in a plant like this which I doubt.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 07:40:59 PM by ExGingi »
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Offline CS1

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #582 on: April 25, 2017, 07:36:06 PM »
This isn't Gemara.

You generalized that Chametz is batel before Pesach, ostensibly as an explanation for why a KPF product wouldn't necessarily need a mashgiach tmidi. I offered you an exception which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Somehow I followed you down some rabbit-hole relating to one grains getting lost amongst another grain, even if you found an exception to my exception it doesn't change the fact that not all Chametz is batel before Pesach.

which is why most soda plants, chocolate plants, and other packing plants would probably require mashgiach tmidi pre-Pesach
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Offline aygart

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #583 on: April 25, 2017, 07:40:03 PM »
This isn't Gemara.

You generalized that Chametz is batel before Pesach, ostensibly as an explanation for why a KPF product wouldn't necessarily need a mashgiach tmidi. I offered you an exception which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Somehow I followed you down some rabbit-hole relating to one grains getting lost amongst another grain, even if you found an exception to my exception it doesn't change the fact that not all Chametz is batel before Pesach.
We are talking about a soda production not all KFP products. In which case would soda be bimashehu?

Offline AsherO

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Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
« Reply #584 on: April 25, 2017, 08:04:02 PM »
We are talking about a soda production not all KFP products. In which case would soda be bimashehu?

We were talking about a soda plant with workers running around carrying Chametz. I've never seen a soda plant but ostensibly some of that Chametz could end up in the soda.
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