Author Topic: Cell-phones/talking in Shul  (Read 6142 times)

Offline Emkay

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 14385
  • Total likes: 363
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Where I ought to be
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2017, 05:34:20 AM »
It is Friday so I get to ask, what's the problem with women wearing pants?
(Like everything in Judaism) it's debatable what the reason is nowadays but this is applicable.
מתני׳ ואלו יוצאות שלא בכתובה העוברת על דת משה ויהודית ואיזו היא דת משה מאכילתו שאינו מעושר ומשמשתו נדה ולא קוצה לה חלה ונודרת ואינה מקיימת ואיזוהי דת יהודית יוצאה וראשה פרוע וטווה בשוק ומדברת עם כל אדם אבא שאול אומר אף המקללת יולדיו בפניו רבי טרפון אומר אף הקולנית ואיזוהי קולנית לכשהיא מדברת בתוך ביתה ושכיניה שומעין קולה:
 

Offline 12HRS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 5035
  • Total likes: 464
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2017, 07:59:09 AM »

I think if you walked into a shul vs houses of worship of other religions you would see the difference and also why this happens. The entire atmosphere is different, less formal, more homey, more individual. In the early days of reform Judaism one thing they pushed was having decorum in a shul similar to that of what you're used to. While that seemed positive on the surface, it wasn't, because a shul is not a church and isn't meant to be.


I have never heard anything like this before. Why are we not supposed to be formal?

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10215
  • Total likes: 3977
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2017, 08:54:08 AM »
According to most rabbis it is a violation of the prohibition of cross dressing, which is a direct Biblical commandment
Source? I have not yet found one to say that today's women's pants which are tailored specifically for women are considered wearing men's clothing. THey may be there and I would not be surprised if they are since I have not really searched for it, but I have never seen it.

The reasoning I have seen is that it is considered immodest for her legs to be visible separately.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 8363
  • Total likes: 2070
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2017, 09:09:48 AM »
Source? I have not yet found one to say that today's women's pants which are tailored specifically for women are considered wearing men's clothing. THey may be there and I would not be surprised if they are since I have not really searched for it, but I have never seen it.

The reasoning I have seen is that it is considered immodest for her legs to be visible separately.
Accurate!

Yemenite tradition is for women to wear (loose) pants under dresses/skirts for modesty purposes.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline MeirS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 2371
  • Total likes: 84
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2017, 10:00:08 AM »
Why am I shocked that this is a big problem?
My response to CM and to this whole conversation would be similar to cholents but in different words.

In the ultra Orthodox shuls there is somewhat a feeling of a חסיד'ישע מלוה מלכה (I'll let someone else translate that one) which the leadership is for it to a certain extent. Therefore the leadership gives of mixed messages as to whether this is supposed to be a formal experience or not.
I will say that I personally see this experience much less in nusach Ashkenaz shuls be they MO or yeshivish.
I appreciate the fact that you are shocked for this reason!

I think if you walked into a shul vs houses of worship of other religions you would see the difference and also why this happens. The entire atmosphere is different, less formal, more homey, more individual. In the early days of reform Judaism one thing they pushed was having decorum in a shul similar to that of what you're used to. While that seemed positive on the surface, it wasn't, because a shul is not a church and isn't meant to be.

None of this is to defend cell phones or talking in shul, both of which deeply disturb me

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Posts: 6669
  • Total likes: 1058
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2017, 11:19:33 AM »
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10215
  • Total likes: 3977
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2017, 11:24:26 AM »
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.
There are some of the Modox shuls with Cantors etc. which a definitely more formal, but I am under the impression that the nature of the services are different.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1959
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2017, 11:38:35 AM »
BTW I cut my wine consumption in half so you'll need to reckon with a way may coherent me;)

First let's start with talking in shull, a chabad rabbi / shliach kind of justified it, nay he glorified it in an arutz sheva article a few years ago. He says that we are used to shull and we come so often it's like home (halevai people would ensure the shull was as clean and fixed up and fancy etc as their home)

Any ways, it all breaks down to serious discussion of why we daven, it's really not about how often you do it.  What's the point of going to shull if you are going to talk and disturb the tefilla ? Your chotey umachateh and you are certainly not getting any reward, what for, tefillah betzibur?! Ha!

I bring up pants and covering hair because there are as mentioned, different opinions that hold pants are OK.

Notice how people find reasons, excuses, logic, justification and even twisted praise for talking in shull.

Find me one posek that praises or allows talking in shull.

The truth is, I don't care what people do, but talking in shull is highly inconsiderate, Now imagine a shull where they talk but are supposedly frum so the women dress modestly, imagine if a woman went to the kiddish and was wearing a low cut shirt and short skirt etc they'd say well hey that's wrong and she should be considerate and dress modestly

I don't like praying in shull, I get bored fast, I like going to different shulls etc but ultimately people need to address why they pray, do you do it because it's considered the standard or you are used to it or do you pray because of the right reasons?  If people prayed for the right reasons, I'm sure they'd have more respect for prayer and the house of prayer.

For me, halacha aside, talking in shull is rude

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1959
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2017, 11:40:39 AM »
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.

Maybe Sephardi shulls, but also modox shulls where there is more choral singing and community singing.

With many yeshivish or chasidic shulls with loud dawning it's like a free for all

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10215
  • Total likes: 3977
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2017, 11:50:06 AM »

First let's start with talking in shull, a chabad rabbi / shliach kind of justified it, nay he glorified it in an arutz sheva article a few years ago. He says that we are used to shull and we come so often it's like home (halevai people would ensure the shull was as clean and fixed up and fancy etc as their home)
.......
Notice how people find reasons, excuses, logic, justification and even twisted praise for talking in shull.

Find me one posek that praises or allows talking in shull.
There are no poskim who praise or allow it. In fact in the entire SA this is the ONLY place where the mechaber writes gadol avono miniso-his sin is too great to carry. I did not see the article you are referring to, but I would take it Berditchiver style.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 8363
  • Total likes: 2070
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2017, 12:28:59 PM »
There are no poskim who praise or allow it. In fact in the entire SA this is the ONLY place where the mechaber writes gadol avono miniso-his sin is too great to carry. I did not see the article you are referring to, but I would take it Berditchiver style.
+1

There's a story about a place where the Rov strongly admonished people from talking and socializing in shul. After a while, people started coming to the Rov with all kinds of problems that needed help. Turns out that during the talking/socializing in the shul, people were also helping each other.

To add to what you write about the mechaber, I will also point out that the only place in Tanya where the Alter Rebbe writes געוואלד געוואלד refers to proper davening. http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/adhaz/tanya/4/24
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aarony

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jan 2010
  • Posts: 475
  • Total likes: 15
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2017, 02:28:48 PM »
 I just want to point out that my comment that started this thread was originally  posted as a response in a different thread  and it was moved by the moderators.   The comment was originally posted that leaving my cellphone at home or in he car was something that helped me Daven better on a personal level.  it was never intended to be a condemnation  of other people who talk or have their cellphones on during davening.    Everyone needs to grow at their own pace and with in their own needs. 

Offline skyguy918

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2011
  • Posts: 3080
  • Total likes: 234
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Queens, NY
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2017, 03:44:15 PM »
Maybe Sephardi shulls, but also modox shulls where there is more choral singing and community singing.

With many yeshivish or chasidic shulls with loud dawning it's like a free for all
I think it's telling that everyone in this thread is basically saying the same thing, including you, yet you have to make it about right-wing bashing.

Offline MeirS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 2371
  • Total likes: 84
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2017, 05:52:21 PM »
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.

There are some of the Modox shuls with Cantors etc. which a definitely more formal, but I am under the impression that the nature of the services are different.

Maybe Sephardi shulls, but also modox shulls where there is more choral singing and community singing.

With many yeshivish or chasidic shulls with loud dawning it's like a free for all

I think it's telling that everyone in this thread is basically saying the same thing, including you, yet you have to make it about right-wing bashing.
I don't know what you guys are thinking but almost every Shul I've been to has some very formal settings to the prayers. You don't even realize how formal it is. Unless I totally misunderstood the question.

Offline NTorch

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Feb 2016
  • Posts: 1405
  • Total likes: 186
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 44
    • View Profile
  • Location: West Hempstead
Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2017, 10:37:52 AM »
Anyone know if they are still giving away free cell phone lockers for shuls who want to implement a no cell phone policy?

http://www.localjewishnews.com/2015/03/12/shul-phone-lockers/