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Quote from Cholent:

"If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families."
« Last edited by Baruch on May 24, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »

Author Topic: Budget to penalize large families!  (Read 24551 times)

Offline joeberg

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #140 on: May 26, 2017, 11:02:00 AM »
True, but amex and Chase don't need names or proof...
True, but also don't have the same resources to get it.

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #141 on: May 26, 2017, 11:07:35 AM »
Please stop posting certain accusations Amex and Chase are not the only ones who can Google and read forums.
Don't be under the illusion that they will have found out anything new over here.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline joeberg

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2017, 11:22:37 AM »
Don't be under the illusion that they will have found out anything new over here.
I have no such illusions, but don't be under the illusion that more exposure and publicity doesn't influence their agenda.

Offline hachover

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #143 on: May 26, 2017, 12:04:31 PM »
I have no such illusions, but don't be under the illusion that more exposure and publicity doesn't influence their agenda.

This is true. A lot of public agenda is set with a finger in the wind. If this boiled enough people's blood and the accusations went viral, you can bet it would start getting attention from the same people who already knew about it but had other things to focus on.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline as2

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #144 on: May 26, 2017, 12:16:12 PM »
I have no such illusions, but don't be under the illusion that more exposure and publicity doesn't influence their agenda.
What agenda? Enforcing the law? Why would you shelter these people? I would never hand them in, but to say that one shouldn't imply that it happens, is ridiculous. If they weren't aware, there would not be government departments dedicated to eradicating it
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

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« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 01:28:24 PM by binyomink »

Offline JoeyShmoe

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Offline cholent

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #147 on: May 26, 2017, 02:38:10 PM »
Of the 2 the family with less children take priorty.
Also, the gov. Is not providing fs in order  to soften the impact, that's a side benefit.
So why does the government provide fs?
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #148 on: May 26, 2017, 02:42:44 PM »
So why does the government provide fs?
So poor people will have what to eat.
Nothing to do with encouraging or discouraging having children.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #149 on: May 26, 2017, 02:48:03 PM »
The 30% stays at 30% no matter the family size.
True, but the income limit to receive benefits rises.

No ones arguing if programs are an incentive not to work. I personally am liberal on that issue, and don't care, although I do think there are ways of making programs smarter, that will make working more incentivised.

There was an argument being made that the larger the family the less incentive. That is what the argument is about.

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #150 on: May 26, 2017, 02:55:04 PM »
True, but the income limit to receive benefits rises.

No ones arguing if programs are an incentive not to work. I personally am liberal on that issue, and don't care, although I do think there are ways of making programs smarter, that will make working more incentivised.

There was an argument being made that the larger the family the less incentive. That is what the argument is about.

When the amount needed to get past FS is higher the incentive to work is less. It is much easier to get to a salary of $30k than it is to get to a salary of $60k. If 90% or more of earnings until $60k do not benefit the person then what is the incentive to work?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #151 on: May 26, 2017, 03:00:03 PM »
True, but the income limit to receive benefits rises.

No ones arguing if programs are an incentive not to work. I personally am liberal on that issue, and don't care, although I do think there are ways of making programs smarter, that will make working more incentivised.

There was an argument being made that the larger the family the less incentive. That is what the argument is about.
Do you feel that over the long term it is helpful or hurtful to the family to create a situation where they are stuck with a FS income?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #152 on: May 26, 2017, 03:06:03 PM »
When the amount needed to get past FS is higher the incentive to work is less. It is much easier to get to a salary of $30k than it is to get to a salary of $60k. If 90% or more of earnings until $60k do not benefit the person then what is the incentive to work?
To be honest, that actually makes sense. (90% is an over exaggeration, the regular guy on programs loses about 50-60% of his income, until the insurance cliff comes.)

But all truth be told, I never really cared if there was an economics argument to be made for the proposal.
I still don't want to see tens of thousand of my brethren, being thrown into poverty.


Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #153 on: May 26, 2017, 03:07:02 PM »
To be honest, that actually makes sense.

But all truth be told, I never really cared if there was an economics argument to be made for the proposal.
I still don't want to see tens of thousand of my brethren, being thrown into poverty.
Do you feel that over the long term it is helpful or hurtful to the family to create a situation where they are stuck with a FS income?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #154 on: May 26, 2017, 03:09:08 PM »

It definitely is hurtful to some, but overall I believe it's more helpful. I know many people who are just lo yutzlachs. And Rebbeim etc. who's salaries simply doesn't cover the bills. There are people who just can't en enough. Should we just leave them without food?

And it definitely has to be reformed.
Maybe Zuckerberg's proposal is the way to go? (I'm kidding. On second thought, maybe I'm not)

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #155 on: May 26, 2017, 03:10:57 PM »
I definitely is hurtful to some, but overall I believe it's more helpful. And it definitely has to be reformed.
Maybe Zuckerberg's proposal is the way to go?
They have had such programs in many places around the globe such as USSR, Cuba, N Korea......
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #156 on: May 26, 2017, 03:12:41 PM »
They have had such programs in many places around the globe such as USSR, Cuba, N Korea......
lol. It actually is different. Because his proposal only has a minimum income, but Communism has a maximum income too.

I really haven't thought about it. I was half kidding.

Offline Dawie

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #157 on: May 26, 2017, 03:17:13 PM »
lol. It actually is different. Because his proposal only has a minimum income, but Communism has a maximum income too.

I really haven't thought about it. I was half kidding.
is your last name Sanders? are you from Vermont?
just a little Jewish Geography

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #158 on: May 26, 2017, 03:18:19 PM »
is your last name Sanders? are you from Vermont?
just a little Jewish Geography
;D

Offline hachover

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #159 on: May 26, 2017, 03:54:02 PM »
They have had such programs in many places around the globe such as USSR, Cuba, N Korea......

Finland announced a pilot at the beginning of this year. It's not novel.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/19/basic-income-finland-low-wages-fewer-jobs

In the US - basic income is a fundamental part of the Fair Tax. It makes much more sense than our current hodge podge of tax deductions, credits, and welfare programs. But if you try to change things and swap one for the other you will face major opposition. And if you try to add it to the existing tax structure it makes very little sense and conservatives will fight it.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.