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Quote from Cholent:

"If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families."
« Last edited by Baruch on May 24, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »

Author Topic: Budget to penalize large families!  (Read 24553 times)

Offline Moshe123

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #160 on: May 26, 2017, 03:54:43 PM »
There is something very disingenuous about this statement. It's possible that you mean well, but I'm just having a hard time believing it.

I live in a large Jewish community, and from what I see, it's the working class families that suffer the most. The ones that work on the books and pay their taxes. The ones that pay for their own insurance and their own food. The ones that pay full tuition. The ones that pay full childcare. The ones where both parents work so that they can make ends meet. I hear horror stories of how working class people sometimes don't have money for food after paying all their monthly bills.

A significant portion of the families receiving benefits are laid back and have ZERO motivation to get a real job. They stick with local jobs that pay no more than $35K a year "unter dem tish". They come late to shul and hang around for hours.

My point is, I have just as much or MORE rachmanus on families who work their butts off to eke out a living. The budget proposal is supposed to work in favor of taxpayers. I don't know whether it will be successful or not, but I'm happy to give it a try.

You couldn't have put it better.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #161 on: May 26, 2017, 03:59:05 PM »
To be honest, that actually makes sense. (90% is an over exaggeration, the regular guy on programs loses about 50-60% of his income, until the insurance cliff comes.)

But all truth be told, I never really cared if there was an economics argument to be made for the proposal.
I still don't want to see tens of thousand of my brethren, being thrown into poverty.

I think the problem is that you don't understand that conservatives also don't want people to be in poverty. We just understand that in the long run, handouts are not the way to help people, and in fact largely hold people back.

The job of the government isn't to do what is best for frum yidden, it is to do what is best for the country in general. You are 100% right to express concern for those families that may receive less food stamps, but the answer doesn't have to be calling your (or someone else's) congressman. Start a collection to fill the gap. And I guarantee you that (outside of the frum community) the ones arguing for this cut will give a lot more generously than the ones arguing for it.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #162 on: May 26, 2017, 05:58:32 PM »
Really saddening to see the responses on DDF to a proposal that will save the American tax payer almost nothing, and will cost our community so much.

The normal knee jerk reaction of people to a proposal that hits their community 100x more than other communites, is to be against it. Thank G-d that's how I was raised.

And that's how the ehrliche chassideshe communities, and yeshivish bnei torah react, (even the rich ones, even the balei batim).

Unfortunately there are so many bitter yidden out there, who have no empathy for the truly poor large families. Who only see negatives in the community. Who think that everyone struggling is lazy.

I'm extremely disappointed.

This thread is a sad commentary on the state of a big portion of the frum community today.




Offline aro123

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #163 on: May 26, 2017, 06:15:35 PM »
Really saddening to see the responses on DDF to a proposal that will save the American tax payer almost nothing, and will cost our community so much.

The normal knee jerk reaction of people to a proposal that hits their community 100x more than other communites, is to be against it. Thank G-d that's how I was raised.

And that's how the ehrliche chassideshe communities, and yeshivish bnei torah react, (even the rich ones, even the balei batim).

Unfortunately there are so many bitter yidden out there, who have no empathy for the truly poor large families. Who only see negatives in the community. Who think that everyone struggling is lazy.

I'm extremely disappointed.

This thread is a sad commentary on the state of a big portion of the frum community today.
Stop trying to stay on your high horse when you are really under it sucking at the ....  We know you are a multi generation welfare queen who voted for obama×2 and how bernie and hillary. Stop trying to cry poverty that you can only get $925 per month for food when there are many people who actually pay for their  food who spend less than that only buying sales and no prepared foods. We know you are upset at chase/amex/trump for cutting back on the free gelt but its time to actually get a job

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #164 on: May 26, 2017, 06:18:27 PM »
Really saddening to see the responses on DDF to a proposal that will save the American tax payer almost nothing, and will cost our community so much.

The normal knee jerk reaction of people to a proposal that hits their community 100x more than other communites, is to be against it. Thank G-d that's how I was raised.

And that's how the ehrliche chassideshe communities, and yeshivish bnei torah react, (even the rich ones, even the balei batim).

Unfortunately there are so many bitter yidden out there, who have no empathy for the truly poor large families. Who only see negatives in the community. Who think that everyone struggling is lazy.

I'm extremely disappointed.

This thread is a sad commentary on the state of a big portion of the frum community today.
I also feel bad for those who find paying taxes a burden.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #165 on: May 26, 2017, 06:39:01 PM »
Really saddening to see the responses on DDF to a proposal that will save the American tax payer almost nothing, and will cost our community so much.

The normal knee jerk reaction of people to a proposal that hits their community 100x more than other communites, is to be against it. Thank G-d that's how I was raised.

And that's how the ehrliche chassideshe communities, and yeshivish bnei torah react, (even the rich ones, even the balei batim).

Unfortunately there are so many bitter yidden out there, who have no empathy for the truly poor large families. Who only see negatives in the community. Who think that everyone struggling is lazy.

I'm extremely disappointed.

This thread is a sad commentary on the state of a big portion of the frum community today.
If you wouldn't  decide for people how they should express their empathy and compassion, you may find the people on this thread are in fact compassionate.

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #166 on: May 27, 2017, 10:50:58 PM »
It definitely is hurtful to some, but overall I believe it's more helpful. I know many people who are just lo yutzlachs. And Rebbeim etc. who's salaries simply doesn't cover the bills. There are people who just can't en enough. Should we just leave them without food?

Question fo ryou:
WHere do you think rents and real estate prices in Lakewood would be if not for HUD?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #167 on: May 27, 2017, 10:54:56 PM »
I made an interesting calculation this shabbos. The Mechilta in parshas Bo accordingt o the girsa of the GRA says that the 600,000 Jews counted calculates to a total of 3.6million including women, below 20 and above 60 years old. This weeks parsha says there were 22,000 bechorim. If we double that to account for first-born girls we are left with 44,000 families of siblings. THat calculates to an average of about 81 children per family.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chinagel

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #168 on: May 27, 2017, 10:57:52 PM »
I made an interesting calculation this shabbos. The Mechilta in parshas Bo accordingt o the girsa of the GRA says that the 600,000 Jews counted calculates to a total of 3.6million including women, below 20 and above 60 years old. This weeks parsha says there were 22,000 bechorim. If we double that to account for first-born girls we are left with 44,000 families of siblings. THat calculates to an average of about 81 children per family.
ur not calculating different doros

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #169 on: May 27, 2017, 11:01:31 PM »
ur not calculating different doros
+1

Offline chinagel

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #170 on: May 27, 2017, 11:06:23 PM »
then the families would be larger,  no?
ur saying 81x44k is 3.6 million but not all of those 44k were different families they could have been children, grandchildren etc...
either way definitely a lot of kids per family

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #171 on: May 27, 2017, 11:17:28 PM »
ur not calculating different doros
You guys are all wrong. It most definitely does calculate for doros. It calculates each family as a group of siblings and includes only sibling relationships as family. Of courese they also had parents, Grandparents, cousin, etc. but each of those was counted with his/her siblings. The main thing is that any non-bechor has to be attributed to a bechor born prior.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 11:26:24 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline chinagel

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #172 on: May 27, 2017, 11:33:01 PM »
You guys are all wrong. It most definitely does calculate for doros. It calculates each family as a group of siblings and includes only sibling relationships as family. Of courese they also had parents, Grandparents, cousin, etc. but each of those was counted with his/her siblings. The main thing is that any non-bechor has to be attributed to a bechor born prior.
im trying to remember what i was thinking >:( ???

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #173 on: May 27, 2017, 11:35:43 PM »
im trying to remember what i was thinking >:( ???
I got a similar reaction a few times over shabbos. They just needed to let it sink in a bit.

Even with shisha b'keres echad that means an average of 13 pregnancies each. Then consider that the younger ones may not have gotten that far yet.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ben89

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #174 on: May 27, 2017, 11:45:22 PM »
Maybe there were a lot more first born girls and maybe there were a lot of nefaylim?

Offline Dan

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #175 on: May 28, 2017, 12:08:42 AM »
I made an interesting calculation this shabbos. The Mechilta in parshas Bo accordingt o the girsa of the GRA says that the 600,000 Jews counted calculates to a total of 3.6million including women, below 20 and above 60 years old. This weeks parsha says there were 22,000 bechorim. If we double that to account for first-born girls we are left with 44,000 families of siblings. THat calculates to an average of about 81 children per family.
Don't you need to exclude the once that didn't need a pidyon? Exclude firstborn after a miscarriage, non-natural birth, Levi/Kohen parent, etc.
And then potentially a higher percentage of bechorim that were involved in the aigel and/or were killed or left behind in Mitzrayim.
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #176 on: May 28, 2017, 12:17:37 AM »
Maybe there were a lot more first born girls and maybe there were a lot of nefaylim?
Maybe but why would we assume that there were so many more girls? I guess maybe there was some effect of the mitzrim killing the boys. Even calculating that it would also make the total of girls higher.
Don't you need to exclude the once that didn't need a pidyon? Exclude firstborn after a miscarriage, non-natural birth, Levi/Kohen parent, etc.
And then potentially a higher percentage of bechorim that were involved in the aigel and/or were killed or left behind in Mitzrayim.
I do not think that Levi/Kohen parent was applicable for that group. It is not the same as the current pidyon haben.

Yes, miscarriages etc. could change the numbers somewhat and there is the possibility of higher percentages which died previously even though we have no real reason to think so. Even after taking that into consideration the numbers are astounding. There is a limit to their impact.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Dan

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #177 on: May 28, 2017, 12:18:39 AM »
I do not think that Levi/Kohen parent was applicable for that group. It is not the same as the current pidyon haben.
Wasn't it swapping for Leviim? Are you sure about that?

But yes, 6 kids at a time and no BC will create some astounding numbers...
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #178 on: May 28, 2017, 12:20:31 AM »
Wasn't it swapping for Leviim? Are you sure about that?
I am not sure about that, which is why I wrote "I do not think that...".
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Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #179 on: May 28, 2017, 12:22:46 AM »
Wasn't it swapping for Leviim? Are you sure about that?

But yes, 6 kids at a time and no BC will create some astounding numbers...
I would leave out the part about no BC. According to the gemara and midrashim each time took quite an effort on the mothers part to get pregnant. Tachas hatapuach....
Feelings don't care about your facts