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Quote from Cholent:

"If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families."
« Last edited by Baruch on May 24, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »

Author Topic: Budget to penalize large families!  (Read 14300 times)

Offline asd

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2017, 03:59:31 PM »
a good amount of these families might not even qualify for food stamps if they didn't get paid under the table. To each their own. I'm no fan of the government taking my hard earned money, but it's a 2 way street.
To speak loshon hora on a rabbim is a serious issur I don't envy you.

Offline as2

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 04:06:50 PM »
The issue here is having rachmunos on your fellow jew  even if you don't agree with the policy we are called rachmunim b'nei rachmunim for a reason ( even if it doesn't comport to your political views)
I do have rahmanos on my fellow Jews, and I have done and will continue to do a lot for the poor in my community. That can easily be done without getting involved in this.
To speak loshon hora on a rabbim is a serious issur I don't envy you.
I don't need your envy. I appreciate your concern
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Offline Freddie

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2017, 04:07:08 PM »
To speak loshon hora on a rabbim is a serious issur I don't envy you.

It reminds me of the joke about the rabbi who gets up to the pulpit and says, "Half of this congregation is made up of liars and cheaters!"  The president of the congregation tell the rabbi that this is unacceptable and he has to fix it next week. Next Shabbos he gets up to the pulpit and says, "Half of this congregation is not made up of liars and cheaters!"

Offline yelped

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2017, 04:12:48 PM »
Wow. Looks like some Chassidim are fahrkished with Trump and everything he does. Someone should teach them what the term "fanboys" mean.

Offline as2

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2017, 04:14:08 PM »
Wow. Looks like some Chassidim are fahrkished with Trump and everything he does. Someone should teach them what the term "fanboys" mean.
Funny, I actually look at this completely for what it is, not the person proposing it.
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Online yuneeq

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2017, 04:15:02 PM »
This bill will cause massive poverty in your communities.

Interesting, I didn't realize that the bill will cause poverty.
I naively thought that food stamps were meant for poor people.
Live forever or die trying.

Offline precise

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2017, 04:48:48 PM »
Wow. Looks like some Chassidim are fahrkished with Trump and everything he does. Someone should teach them what the term "fanboys" mean.
Bush, Obama, Trump couldn't care less the name. Every decent American knows and feels that the economy (and plenty of other stuff) in the USA was very bad over the last few years. Now we all- including the chasidim- are all hoping that Trump will not fall prey to the swamp and get the economy going.
To sum it up we are all farkished in a good economy so we can support our families like decent human beings without needing food stamps or kasher gelt under the table

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2017, 05:28:18 PM »
Ha! And all the DDF "experts" thought that astroglide would be the popcorn thread!
They should combine the two as cause and effect.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline cholent

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2017, 05:54:28 PM »
You really can't understand this can you? It's not looked at per child amount, that's just how they decide an amount to give you. Regardless they are cutting the total you are receiving as a benefit, not an entitlement. Learn to be happy with what you have. And how dare you accuse me of not caring for the poor! If you had any clue who I was or where I came from, I highly doubt you'd be saying that.
Of course it's looked at as a per child amount. Up to 8 family members, each additional qualifying child increases the benefit amount, which is logical - each child needs to eat. After that, under this proposal, the benefit would be capped. That means in practical terms that child number 7 and on receive no food stamp benefit.
If we as a country believe that there is some level of social responsibility that the government bears to ensure its citizens don't go hungry, then this cut makes no sense. Every child, including those in large families, should get the benefit they qualify for based on family income. If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2017, 06:07:18 PM »
@Baruch et al.

Do you understand the economic policy here? More elementary, do you understand that what's happening here might be economic policy?

I personally don't know exactly what is going on, but in the typical economic policy that Fiscally Conservative Politicians tend to adopt, is to address the "living wage" vs social programs issue. This is one of the major sticking points (for all people, not just Conservatives), that basically looks at how much can a breadwinner(s) earn at a job vs programs.

Now someone with a larger family needs to earn alot more than a single parent with one child in order for it to "pay" to work and not get programs. This is not up for discussion. It is fact.

How would you encourage the large family to work? This is one possible way. If you lower the benefits, and now a job that was below the "benefit package" before, is above, maybe the breadwinner will take that job offer.

I am no means saying it doesn't affect people in our community, but I don't think he is targeting Jews. Maybe, just maybe, he is targeting the segment of the population that currently needs to make more than they can in order for it to be more profitable to work.

Suggested reading: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwig6LGyxInUAhVBwiYKHabmD14QFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFVhZzd1SpzJHhKJJ6c6HOYMjJxpw&sig2=CJN29dQPVz19aPtGjrluyg

Please note that the numbers in that study assume a single parent with two dependants.

PS. Please keep in mind that employers, unlike the government, don't pay more if you have more children, and as such, while maybe you feel that they should cut the amount per hungry mouth, it won't have the same effect given the employer "issue".
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 06:18:09 PM by YOSEF »

Offline hachover

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2017, 07:13:10 PM »
The budget proposal document lays out very clearly the rationale that YOSEF described. Its an easy read in simple English. The first section is just scapegoating, not important. But the second section goes into why each social program is being targeted. Its not being done as an attack on large families or frum lifestyle, its being done to reduce the moral hazard that social programs pose to joining the work force. That is an intention that I can get fully behind.

Are there unintended consequences? Definitely. I don't want to minimize that. Should I oppose this because its not well thought out despite agreeing with the intent behind it? Probably. To the OP- encouraging individuals to call congressmen wont do anything. Get organized and fight as a group.

By the way, 20-30 years ago few frum people relied on social programs to live and we made it work. Sure its different now but we can make it work now too.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline Iz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2017, 07:23:25 PM »
Rav Elchonon Hy"d asked a bachur for a sefer to borrow, the bachur replied : "I b'shita don't lend my seforim", Rav Elchonon replied "b'kitzur you're b'shita an achzar".
Really? You believe that a bochur would say that to Rav Elchonon?! If he did he's a shoteh, not an achzar.

Offline Iz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2017, 07:23:52 PM »
Some genius leftist
Who would that be?

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2017, 08:00:19 PM »
@Baruch et al.

Do you understand the economic policy here? More elementary, do you understand that what's happening here might be economic policy?

I personally don't know exactly what is going on, but in the typical economic policy that Fiscally Conservative Politicians tend to adopt, is to address the "living wage" vs social programs issue. This is one of the major sticking points (for all people, not just Conservatives), that basically looks at how much can a breadwinner(s) earn at a job vs programs.

Now someone with a larger family needs to earn alot more than a single parent with one child in order for it to "pay" to work and not get programs. This is not up for discussion. It is fact.

How would you encourage the large family to work? This is one possible way. If you lower the benefits, and now a job that was below the "benefit package" before, is above, maybe the breadwinner will take that job offer.

I am no means saying it doesn't affect people in our community, but I don't think he is targeting Jews. Maybe, just maybe, he is targeting the segment of the population that currently needs to make more than they can in order for it to be more profitable to work.

Suggested reading: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwig6LGyxInUAhVBwiYKHabmD14QFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFVhZzd1SpzJHhKJJ6c6HOYMjJxpw&sig2=CJN29dQPVz19aPtGjrluyg

Please note that the numbers in that study assume a single parent with two dependants.

PS. Please keep in mind that employers, unlike the government, don't pay more if you have more children, and as such, while maybe you feel that they should cut the amount per hungry mouth, it won't have the same effect given the employer "issue".

No one said it targets Jews, it targets large families.

And I don't think this proposal has anything to do with Trump. I highly doubt he even knows it exists.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 08:08:30 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2017, 08:05:22 PM »
Really? You believe that a bochur would say that to Rav Elchonon?! If he did he's a shoteh, not an achzar.
Classical case of "a Kashya oif a maysa", that part of the story is irrelevant. The point is Rav Elchonon's vort.

If you want I can change the story for you, "Rav Elchonon overheard the bachur saying that to another bachur", but that's not how I heard it.
When somebody thanks you for a favor you've done, respond "my pleasure", not "no problem".