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Quote from Cholent:

"If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families."
« Last edited by Baruch on May 24, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »

Author Topic: Budget to penalize large families!  (Read 24552 times)

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #80 on: May 25, 2017, 03:11:20 PM »
If they can earn $2500 a month, and they get $1500 from welfare, they have an incentive to work. If they can receive $3500 in welfare (due to large family), they have no incentive to work, because their income is staying the same at $2500.

Disregard the actual numbers but that's the basic idea that I understand.
The numbers just don't add up, because the threshold to lose the benefits is higher, being that they have a larger family.

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #81 on: May 25, 2017, 03:15:35 PM »
I don't know all the real numbers here either, but I do know that it's difficult and therefore rare to receive all of these programs simultaneously and certainly not for extended periods of time. Welfare is currently very limited, difficult to qualify for, and short term only
I have no clue about Welfare but I know that I have numerous acquaintances who get FS, Sec8, and health
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline cholent

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #82 on: May 25, 2017, 03:19:34 PM »
I have no clue about Welfare but I know that I have numerous acquaintances who get FS, Sec8, and health
From what I understand, in many areas (certainly in Lakewood) it is impossible to get onto section 8 and has been close to impossible for many years
Food stamps and health are available to everyone as long as they qualify. A gradual ramp down of benefits vs a cliff would encourage program participants to earn as much as possible
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #83 on: May 25, 2017, 03:23:25 PM »
From what I understand, in many areas (certainly in Lakewood) it is impossible to get onto section 8 and has been close to impossible for many years
Food stamps and health are available to everyone as long as they qualify. A gradual ramp down of benefits vs a cliff would encourage program participants to earn as much as possible
People with large famlies have had long enough to get on.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #84 on: May 25, 2017, 03:28:27 PM »
A simpler fix would be to slowly ramp down benefits instead of having a cliff. This happens to some extent but not enough. This way a person would always come out ahead by working more since they would lose some benefits but not enough to make working a losing proposition overall

Regardless, the stated goal of snap is to reduce hunger among poor people. Whatever the reasoning for cutting the program, doing it in a way that disproportionately affects large families is a contradiction to the  actual program's purpose. It certainly is not pork
The alternative  would be to cut snap benefits evenly across the board. Wouldn't that have the same bottom line effect on large families? 

Offline aygart

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2017, 03:32:51 PM »
The alternative  would be to cut snap benefits evenly across the board. Wouldn't that have the same bottom line effect on large families? 
math is hard.

ETA: It actually would not affect them the same because some of the burden would be shared by smaller families. The difference may not be what he thinks though.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:37:43 PM by aygart »
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2017, 03:33:18 PM »

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2017, 03:41:54 PM »
The alternative  would be to cut snap benefits evenly across the board. Wouldn't that have the same bottom line effect on large families?
But that wouldn't pass in congress, because it would hurt too many people.

Targeting large families, is a way of cutting , while losing the least politically. Because there are only 200k large families on FS.

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2017, 04:35:23 PM »
But that wouldn't pass in congress, because it would hurt too many people.

Targeting large families, is a way of cutting , while losing the least politically. Because there are only 200k large families on FS.
Would you be opposed to cross the board cuts?

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2017, 05:23:18 PM »
If they can earn $2500 a month, and they get $1500 from welfare, they have an incentive to work. If they can receive $3500 in welfare (due to large family), they have no incentive to work, because their income is staying the same at $2500.

Disregard the actual numbers but that's the basic idea that I understand.
Ding ding ding.
Winner winner chicken dinner!!

As much as the overreaching government has accomplished, they still haven't forced employers to pay based on family size, and until that happens, people's earning potential won't change based on number of kids.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2017, 08:11:22 PM »
Ding ding ding.
Winner winner chicken dinner!!

As much as the overreaching government has accomplished, they still haven't forced employers to pay based on family size, and until that happens, people's earning potential won't change based on number of kids.
That still doesn't explain why people with larger families, need more of an incentive to work.
Being that the limit of income to qualify rises per child.

Offline chinagel

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2017, 08:22:47 PM »
That still doesn't explain why people with larger families, need more of an incentive to work.
Being that the limit of income to qualify rises per child.
IINM it does not rise proportionally

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2017, 08:31:29 PM »
IINM it does not rise proportionally
You are mistaken

Offline Baruch

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Offline chinagel

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #94 on: May 25, 2017, 09:48:40 PM »
You are mistaken
not the first time :)

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #95 on: May 25, 2017, 10:32:35 PM »
That still doesn't explain why people with larger families, need more of an incentive to work.
Being that the limit of income to qualify rises per child.
Let's assume Bob can get a job that pays $35K.
If Bob is a single father with 1 child, he will only make $25K equivalent off of programs.
If Bob is a father of 7, he will make $60K equivalent off of programs.

How do we get Bob the father of 7 to work?

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #96 on: May 25, 2017, 10:37:54 PM »
Let's assume Bob can get a job that pays $35K.
If Bob is a single father with 1 child, he will only make $25K equivalent off of programs.
If Bob is a father of 7, he will make $60K equivalent off of programs.

How do we get Bob the father of 7 to work?
You forgot that he needs more money because he has more kids.

Honestly, economics and numbers is clearly not your strength. :)

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #97 on: May 25, 2017, 10:42:01 PM »
You forgot that he needs more money because he has more kids.
I understand that. How did you answer my question?
Honestly, economics and numbers is clearly not your strength. :)
Stop being a jerk.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #98 on: May 25, 2017, 10:50:54 PM »
I understand that. How did you answer my question?Stop being a jerk.
I'm not being a jerk, your argument is illogical. It always was.

Why is there a smaller incentive for someone with a larger family to work?

The income is deducted from FS 20-30% regardless of family size.

The income limit rises with each child.

Each child costs the parents more money to support.

Anyone with a any sense realizes that the above numbers show, that as the family grows, the incentive to work does not decrease.

I can only conclude that economics is not your strong point.

That's OK. It's not mine either. (Though I have read dozens of books on Economics, from right, center and left. And am still not sure who's right.)


Offline 12HRS

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #99 on: May 25, 2017, 10:53:58 PM »
Honestly, economics and numbers is clearly not your strength. :)

Stop being a jerk.

@Baruch If you truly care about all jews and their wallets you should probably also care that you are insulting people left and right.

There is absolutely no need to put an insulting line in your posts degenerating the poster you are responding to.