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Quote from Cholent:

"If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families."
« Last edited by Baruch on May 24, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »

Author Topic: Budget to penalize large families!  (Read 24488 times)

Offline hachover

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2017, 07:13:10 PM »
The budget proposal document lays out very clearly the rationale that YOSEF described. Its an easy read in simple English. The first section is just scapegoating, not important. But the second section goes into why each social program is being targeted. Its not being done as an attack on large families or frum lifestyle, its being done to reduce the moral hazard that social programs pose to joining the work force. That is an intention that I can get fully behind.

Are there unintended consequences? Definitely. I don't want to minimize that. Should I oppose this because its not well thought out despite agreeing with the intent behind it? Probably. To the OP- encouraging individuals to call congressmen wont do anything. Get organized and fight as a group.

By the way, 20-30 years ago few frum people relied on social programs to live and we made it work. Sure its different now but we can make it work now too.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline Iz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2017, 07:23:25 PM »
Rav Elchonon Hy"d asked a bachur for a sefer to borrow, the bachur replied : "I b'shita don't lend my seforim", Rav Elchonon replied "b'kitzur you're b'shita an achzar".
Really? You believe that a bochur would say that to Rav Elchonon?! If he did he's a shoteh, not an achzar.

Offline Iz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2017, 07:23:52 PM »
Some genius leftist
Who would that be?

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2017, 08:00:19 PM »
@Baruch et al.

Do you understand the economic policy here? More elementary, do you understand that what's happening here might be economic policy?

I personally don't know exactly what is going on, but in the typical economic policy that Fiscally Conservative Politicians tend to adopt, is to address the "living wage" vs social programs issue. This is one of the major sticking points (for all people, not just Conservatives), that basically looks at how much can a breadwinner(s) earn at a job vs programs.

Now someone with a larger family needs to earn alot more than a single parent with one child in order for it to "pay" to work and not get programs. This is not up for discussion. It is fact.

How would you encourage the large family to work? This is one possible way. If you lower the benefits, and now a job that was below the "benefit package" before, is above, maybe the breadwinner will take that job offer.

I am no means saying it doesn't affect people in our community, but I don't think he is targeting Jews. Maybe, just maybe, he is targeting the segment of the population that currently needs to make more than they can in order for it to be more profitable to work.

Suggested reading: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/the_work_versus_welfare_trade-off_2013_wp.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwig6LGyxInUAhVBwiYKHabmD14QFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNFVhZzd1SpzJHhKJJ6c6HOYMjJxpw&sig2=CJN29dQPVz19aPtGjrluyg

Please note that the numbers in that study assume a single parent with two dependants.

PS. Please keep in mind that employers, unlike the government, don't pay more if you have more children, and as such, while maybe you feel that they should cut the amount per hungry mouth, it won't have the same effect given the employer "issue".

No one said it targets Jews, it targets large families.

And I don't think this proposal has anything to do with Trump. I highly doubt he even knows it exists.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 08:08:30 PM by Baruch »

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2017, 08:05:22 PM »
Really? You believe that a bochur would say that to Rav Elchonon?! If he did he's a shoteh, not an achzar.
Classical case of "a Kashya oif a maysa", that part of the story is irrelevant. The point is Rav Elchonon's vort.

If you want I can change the story for you, "Rav Elchonon overheard the bachur saying that to another bachur", but that's not how I heard it.

Offline Iz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2017, 08:09:21 PM »
Classical case of "a Kashya oif a maysa", that part of the story is irrelevant. The point is Rav Elchonon's vort.

If you want I can change the story for you, "Rav Elchonon overheard the bachur saying that to another bachur", but that's not how I heard it.
I definitely don't want you to change it; I want to point out that it is very hard to believe, unless there is a very good source. And therefore it is not irrelevant, because if that part didn't happen, why should we believe that any of it happened. 'nuff said.  :)

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2017, 08:10:34 PM »
I warned about this in the poison thread throughout the election cycle... Trump is the worst thing that happened to the frum community.

It didn't stop the Lakewood and chasidish crowd from stupidly cheering on Trump as the Titanic was sinking.

But don't expect to hear a word of sanity from the yated and our other publications...

And it's going to cost the frum taxpaying community much more in eidim support and tzdakah. So don't even try convincing me that frum business owners are better off.. this affects the entire community terribly.
 

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2017, 08:13:39 PM »
I definitely don't want you to change it; I want to point out that it is very hard to believe, unless there is a very good source. And therefore it is not irrelevant, because if that part didn't happen, why should we believe that any of it happened. 'nuff said.  :)
I hear you. But the vort is true either way. "you're b'shita an achzar". Love it!

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2017, 08:15:55 PM »
I warned about this in the poison thread throughout the election cycle... Trump is the worst thing that happened to the frum community.

It didn't stop the Lakewood and chasidish crowd from stupidly cheering on Trump as the Titanic was sinking.

But don't expect to hear a word of sanity from the yated and our other publications...

And it's going to cost the frum taxpaying community much more in eidim support and tzdakah. So don't even try convincing me that frum business owners are better off.. this affects the entire community terribly.
 
It's not too late. Call Chris Smith. Make everyone aware of this.

What worries me the most, is that targeting large families is such a small population, that even though many of the budget proposals will be gutted. This one will slip in.



Offline 12HRS

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2017, 08:49:43 PM »
Ha! And all the DDF "experts" thought that astroglide would be the popcorn thread!

Thanks for making me search that...


Offline good sam

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2017, 09:16:16 PM »


I would perhaps agree with that sentiment, if they stopped FS altogether. But if they are targeting large families, I look at it at a direct attack on the frum community, and it's ideologies. (Let's be blunt, 50% of the effected would be frum)
You live in a bubble.

If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2017, 09:19:22 PM »
No one said it targets Jews, it targets large families.
But if they are targeting large families, I look at it at a direct attack on the frum community, and it's ideologies. (Let's be blunt, 50% of the effected would be frum)
Aha.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2017, 09:33:48 PM »
Aha.
Nailed.  :-[


But in all honesty, what I meant was that it's not anti semetic, but anti large family ideology which is anti frum ideology.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2017, 09:35:50 PM »
You live in a bubble.
Thanks for your intelligent input into the conversation.   ::)


Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2017, 09:43:03 PM »
But in all honesty, what I meant was that it's not anti semetic, but anti large family ideology which is anti frum ideology.
You have yet to respond to the long post I wrote up thread pointing out how it's an economic ideology that happens to not help, and yes, maybe even hurt, large families for the good of the economy and country as a whole.

Do you not have a response?

Offline asd

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2017, 10:10:33 PM »
You have yet to respond to the long post I wrote up thread pointing out how it's an economic ideology that happens to not help, and yes, maybe even hurt, large families for the good of the economy and country as a whole.

Do you not have a response?
Are you actually recommending that if a policy is good for the country according to their ideology and bad for the  frum community we shouldn't lobby to stop it ?

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2017, 10:13:04 PM »
Are you actually recommending that if a policy is good for the country according to their ideology and bad for the  frum community we shouldn't lobby to stop it ?
No. I am suggesting that it not be taken as anti large family when in truth it isn't.

Just because something is bad for you, doesn't mean they are anti you.

Offline asd

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2017, 10:14:48 PM »
No. I am suggesting that it not be taken as anti large family when in truth it isn't.

Just because something is bad for you, doesn't mean they are anti you.
What's your point,the point the op was making is still correct why should he respond to you?

Offline YOSEF

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2017, 10:24:11 PM »
What's your point,the point the op was making is still correct why should he respond to you?
The Opening Post? Yes.

The Opening Poster? No.
Disagree.

Why should a child from a large family need less food?

It's a direct attack on the concept of large families!

(anyways, I was following the WP way of titling it.)
I knew this would bring out all anti food stamps people.

This has nothing to do with food stamps.

Food stamps remains the same, but after 4 children, they won't give anymore.

It's an anti large family proposal.


So you don't care that the goverments policy is that FS is given to all children, besides for children from large families?

If you want to cut FS, that's a different discussion.

This is a proposal to just target large families.

And, BTW, this bill doesn't effect my family. Shockingly, I actually care about poor families.
My point, is that once we agree that they are not anti large families, but are trying to be more fiscally responsible, it's a totally different discussion about how to go about it and act/react.

In addition, we are no longer appealing to the "anti us" card, but appealing to the "lets get a pork barrel/lobbyist" card.

Much different discussion, as instead of being morally correct, now we are "fighting dirty" to get our pork.

In addition, all of the comments about not caring etc, maybe are just a little misplaced. Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't attack others for not trying to push through a personal agenda with their congressman.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2017, 10:26:30 PM »
You have yet to respond to the long post I wrote up thread pointing out how it's an economic ideology that happens to not help, and yes, maybe even hurt, large families for the good of the economy and country as a whole.

Do you not have a response?
So you quote their cover up explanation, as the true explanation, and I have to respond?

Of course the christian right is not gonna say straight out, that they want poor blacks and Latinos to take birth control and abort!!

And that's all beside the point.

The main point is this is disastrous for the frum community.

I'm not an economist, guilty as charged. But one thing I know is both left and right, have economists who swear the other side is wrong. Economics is used as a weapon for agendas, not the other way around. Welcome to politics!

But I want this proposal cut.

And I'm trying to bring awareness to it.

Everything else is besides the point. 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 10:30:20 PM by Baruch »