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Quote from Cholent:

"If we believe we can't afford as a country to provide this benefit as it stands, then cut evenly across the board, or identify less at risk groups, like healthy adults, and cut them from the program. Cutting benefits from children from large families is a moral judgment that poor people should not have large families."
« Last edited by Baruch on May 24, 2017, 10:52:09 PM »

Author Topic: Budget to penalize large families!  (Read 23746 times)

Online Emkay

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #120 on: May 26, 2017, 05:51:53 AM »
One or even two could be an oops but not six.  ;)
I'd rather help support those actively looking to build a family than those who have numerous "oops babies".

Offline elit

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #121 on: May 26, 2017, 06:57:51 AM »
I'm not being a jerk, your argument is illogical. It always was.

Why is there a smaller incentive for someone with a larger family to work?

The income is deducted from FS 20-30% regardless of family size.

The income limit rises with each child.

Each child costs the parents more money to support.

Anyone with a any sense realizes that the above numbers show, that as the family grows, the incentive to work does not decrease.

I can only conclude that economics is not your strong point.

That's OK. It's not mine either. (Though I have read dozens of books on Economics, from right, center and left. And am still not sure who's right.)
Just gonna say you really lost any credibility regarding your so called concern for klal yisroel with this highly obnoxious post

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #122 on: May 26, 2017, 07:24:04 AM »
So they are targeting the minorities?
Yes, the same way they target the minorities with the estate tax.

Online Emkay

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #123 on: May 26, 2017, 07:26:50 AM »
Just gonna say you really lost any credibility regarding your so called concern for klal yisroel with this highly obnoxious post
Why? Concern doesn't make you a sweetheart.
I'm highly obnoxious and rude and yet like to think I care.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #124 on: May 26, 2017, 07:29:42 AM »
Whoever doesn't like the conservative approach to economics is more then welcome to move to our neighbors in the north or go to Europe. The budget needs to be balanced and they need to cut programs. They would rather cut programs to less people and leave the majority of people unscathed, unfortunately this affects us as Jews more then the others but I do not believe this is targeted at us its simply the majority vs minority.
I agree.
But if you care about your brethren, you should try to fight it. Who cares why they're coming after us, what's important is that they are.

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #125 on: May 26, 2017, 07:31:03 AM »
Just gonna say you really lost any credibility regarding your so called concern for klal yisroel with this highly obnoxious post
Ok. If you think I have no concern for Klal Yisroel, believe that way.

But please contact your congressman, because you have concern for Klal Yisroel.

(I personally view someone so vigorously defending a policy that will have a disastrous affect on so many yidden, as highly obnoxious and disgusting. All I did was accuse him of not having a good grasp of economics. Which, if you look at YOSEF's first comment on this thread, is what he implied about me.)



« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:39:54 AM by Baruch »

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #126 on: May 26, 2017, 07:43:02 AM »
Since it is Friday I will chime in. Everyone is sick and tired on these entitlements. Having a family with say 6 or more kids is a choice you made, not the government. If you can't support that choice the simple solution is to keep that thing in your pants!!!  >:( >:( >:(
Thank you for so clearly explaining the real reason behind the proposal.

That's exactly what I was saying the real reason was, and it's obvious.

It has nothing to do with economics theory.

Offline Sport

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #127 on: May 26, 2017, 08:25:26 AM »
Thank you for so clearly explaining the real reason behind the proposal.

That's exactly what I was saying the real reason was, and it's obvious.

It has nothing to do with economics theory.
There's nothing here, this is not social engineering or an attempt by the government to control and tell us how many kids we should have.
Not softening the impact of choices we make is Not making choices for us, if anything the opposite is true.
This is typical leftist style argument "if you dont give us free birth control  your clearly  trying to control our sex life"

Offline Baruch

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #128 on: May 26, 2017, 08:31:12 AM »
There's nothing here, this is not social engineering or an attempt by the government to control and tell us how many kids we should have.
Not softening the impact of choices we make is Not making choices for us, if anything the opposite is true.
This is typical leftist style argument "if you dont give us free birth control  your clearly  trying to control our sex life"
The impact of the choice of having a child while poor is currently being softened. Only the impact of having a 5th child isn't. That's comparable to the government only giving free birth control to blacks. Wouldn't you say that the government is social engineering to reduce the black population? 

And frankly I don't care if it's social engineering.
I just don't want so many yidden to fall in to poverty.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 08:36:07 AM by Baruch »

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #129 on: May 26, 2017, 08:40:47 AM »
The impact of the choice of having a child while poor is currently being softened. Only the impact of having a 5th child isn't.

And frankly I don't care if it's social engineering.
I just don't want so many yidden to fall in to poverty.
Of the 2 the family with less children take priorty.
Also, the gov. Is not providing fs in order  to soften the impact, that's a side benefit. 

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #130 on: May 26, 2017, 08:44:00 AM »
The more income you make, gradually your benefits get cut. There is no HUGE leap. By the time you get close to the income limits, you are hardly making any money on benefits.

There factually is no huge leap!

There used to be a huge health insurance leap (even though that was also somewhat gradual, first the father {and mother when not pregnant} lost it, then the mother and children lost it) but now with Obamacare, health insurance is also gradual. (Maybe not enough, but we're discussing FS here)

And EIC is capped at 3 children either way.


There is an argument to be made that programs make people not work. But it has nothing to do with family size.
Of course he is stuck on programs, and it is a serious concern. The answer is not to suddenly cut benefits from vulnerable children. The answer is to create a slow ramp down of programs, so that as Bob earns more money his programs slowly become less valuable. This exists to some extent with food stamps, although not enough. It usually doesn't exist with Medicaid. Even where it exists in some form, there is still a point at which benefits fall off a cliff, right at the top of eligibility limits, and that is where people get stuck
How does it help that 30% of income gets knocked off? In ways it makes it worse that it is impossible to even begin to earn without facing this equation which you are conveniently ignoring.

30% Foodstamps
30% Sec 8
8%   FICA
15% Taxes
15% Health Insurance (est)
30% Welfare I don't know the real number for this
128% of salary lost
Besides that, at least in the programs I am familiar with, this is absolutely false. The 30% stays at 30% no matter the family size.

No, because the ramp gets slower and slower, the larger the family grows.

Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #131 on: May 26, 2017, 09:47:01 AM »
Thank you for so clearly explaining the real reason behind the proposal.

That's exactly what I was saying the real reason was, and it's obvious.

It has nothing to do with economics theory.
What are you talking about? I have no idea and don't care why the government is doing this. I am pointing out you have control over the situation not the government.
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline hachover

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #132 on: May 26, 2017, 10:19:12 AM »
I agree.
But if you care about your brethren, you should try to fight it. Who cares why they're coming after us, what's important is that they are.

 :o :o :o

This is called "coming after us"?! Challila that you should ever know what that means

:o :o :o


I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline zale

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #133 on: May 26, 2017, 10:23:12 AM »
I just don't want so many yidden to fall in to poverty.

There is something very disingenuous about this statement. It's possible that you mean well, but I'm just having a hard time believing it.

I live in a large Jewish community, and from what I see, it's the working class families that suffer the most. The ones that work on the books and pay their taxes. The ones that pay for their own insurance and their own food. The ones that pay full tuition. The ones that pay full childcare. The ones where both parents work so that they can make ends meet. I hear horror stories of how working class people sometimes don't have money for food after paying all their monthly bills.

A significant portion of the families receiving benefits are laid back and have ZERO motivation to get a real job. They stick with local jobs that pay no more than $35K a year "unter dem tish". They come late to shul and hang around for hours.

My point is, I have just as much or MORE rachmanus on families who work their butts off to eke out a living. The budget proposal is supposed to work in favor of taxpayers. I don't know whether it will be successful or not, but I'm happy to give it a try.

Offline hachover

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #134 on: May 26, 2017, 10:24:39 AM »
If you truly cared about your fellow Yidden, you would not be beating the drums to make a large scale public stand against the government.

The only ones coming after us are ourselves. We are the ones who created a culture of "medina shel chesed". It is a fantastic thing that these programs exist. But we chose to use them lchatchila and became addicted.
I'm an optimist; but only because life isn't going to give me any other good choices.

Offline JoeyShmoe

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #135 on: May 26, 2017, 10:38:02 AM »
There is something very disingenuous about this statement. It's possible that you mean well, but I'm just having a hard time believing it.

I live in a large Jewish community, and from what I see, it's the working class families that suffer the most. The ones that work on the books and pay their taxes. The ones that pay for their own insurance and their own food. The ones that pay full tuition. The ones that pay full childcare. The ones where both parents work so that they can make ends meet. I hear horror stories of how working class people sometimes don't have money for food after paying all their monthly bills.

A significant portion of the families receiving benefits are laid back and have ZERO motivation to get a real job. They stick with local jobs that pay no more than $35K a year "unter dem tish". They come late to shul and hang around for hours.

My point is, I have just as much or MORE rachmanus on families who work their butts off to eke out a living. The budget proposal is supposed to work in favor of taxpayers. I don't know whether it will be successful or not, but I'm happy to give it a try.
And then there are those with full time off the books jobs and also get all sorts of programs. I know of someone going around flaunting the fact that he's making $60k+ a year off the books and gets a total of over $80k of programs!! I'm sure he isn't the only one!!
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Offline ChaimMoskowitz

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #136 on: May 26, 2017, 10:39:40 AM »
I live in a large Jewish community, and from what I see, it's the working class families that suffer the most. The ones that work on the books and pay their taxes. The ones that pay for their own insurance and their own food. The ones that pay full tuition. The ones that pay full childcare. The ones where both parents work so that they can make ends meet. I hear horror stories of how working class people sometimes don't have money for food after paying all their monthly bills.
This is what boils my blood. These are ones we should help first!!!
I just found a new supply of forks!

Offline as2

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #137 on: May 26, 2017, 10:50:41 AM »
This is what boils my blood. These are ones we should help first!!!
+1 I personally know many people very close to me, who work as hard as they can, and fear getting a small raise, only to be heavily throttled in the benefit department. But at the end of the day, every penny you get for free is a blessing.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline joeberg

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #138 on: May 26, 2017, 10:59:16 AM »
Please stop posting certain accusations Amex and Chase are not the only ones who can Google and read forums.

Offline as2

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Re: Budget to penalize large families!
« Reply #139 on: May 26, 2017, 11:00:32 AM »
Please stop posting certain accusations Amex and Chase are not the only ones who can Google and read forums.
True, but amex and Chase don't need names or proof...
Memories last forever, make them while you can.