Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16817 times)

Offline aygart

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The cherem is not the only "fact" that is relevant to the discussion of the truth of chasiddus. When taken in light of the many other facts including the fact that the black line in your chart moved closer to line representing chasiddus rather than the other way around, we can all agree that the cherem is irrelevant today.

My explanation for why that is so is based on history and yours is based on conjecture and "maybe." So which is fact based? Bikush Ha'emes does not demand taking an idea with no basis seriously.
You yourself stated that your outcome was decided before viewing the facts

I agree that at the very least most of it is not relevant today. That does mean that it was originally misplaced.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline zh cohen

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You yourself stated that your outcome was decided before viewing the facts

I agree that at the very least most of it is not relevant today. That does mean that it was originally misplaced.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. The cherem did not influence my view of chassidus. The facts that I mentioned and others did.

So let's review;

We both agree that chassidus is emes. We both agree that the cherem called chassidus sheker.

I said the cherem is and was wrong, and have facts to back my view up.

You said the cherem is wrong (today) but might not have been when it was written based on a guess and a maybe.

Is this a good summary of the discussion into now?

Offline aygart

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I'm sorry if I was unclear. The cherem did not influence my view of chassidus. The facts that I mentioned and others did.

So let's review;

We both agree that chassidus is emes. We both agree that the cherem called chassidus sheker.

I said the cherem is and was wrong, and have facts to back my view up.

You said the cherem is wrong (today) but might not have been when it was written based on a guess and a maybe.

Is this a good summary of the discussion into now?

saying it is irrelevant today does not mean chassidus is emes, only that a cherem should not currently apply. It also doesn't mean that it is and was wrong. And, you did not present any facts to show that in its time it was wrong.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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Part of bikush haemes is to come to an outcome based on the facts and not the opposite and to realize that maybe something unpleasant can have a positive effect.
Prior to being quoted here, I have never seen or heard of this quote from the Mekor Boruch.

A quick online search came up with Mondshine's article (R' Y. Mondshine A"H is not the topic of this thread, so let's not go there now - he worked in the Hebrew University as a librarian and is a known researcher).

Not being familiar with the quote, but being familiar with some history, and my (inside) view of Chassidus (Chabad), the quote seems odd (to say the least). Which is why I was OK quoting not only Mondshine, but bringing it from a certain website that tends to represent only its owner's and editor's point of view, rather than a broader spectrum which exists within the Chabad-Lubavitch community.

I suggest you read רשימת וויכוח מינסק which I linked to above (which corroborates some of the stories from several sources - and does not placate or try to deny that the Bima was carried out on Shabbos). I would love to see sources from the "opposing" side telling their version of the events.

I would also recommend reading http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf (paging @ben89 - are you familiar with these writings about the Gr"a? What sources are you familiar with in regards to the people and events described in this רשימה?).

I don't know what the Tzemach Tzedek said, I wasn't there and I haven't seen any corroboration. Is it possible that credit was given to the רדיפות וחרמות? Possible, as I said before וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ including the legal status vis-a-vis the Russian government. But the specifics (which might be an interpretation) saying that Chassidus might have gone "too far" just don't make sense.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Do you think that without the opposition of the misnagdim chassidus would look exactly the same as it does today? Would more of chassidus look like Breslov jumping up and down in Tzfas?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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And, you did not present any facts to show that in its time it was wrong.
Just another forum, but the stories quoted in that thread have several sources.

http://old2.ih.chabad.info/forums/theforum_he/viewtopic.php?t=8061&sid=2d9736cabfb0cdb778a05eceb8dd693f

Given those events, can you honestly say that the cherem might have not been wrong at its time?

Pay special attention to last paragraph of page 18 and page 19 of http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf

IMHO anyone that can say that the Gr"a wasn't mislead, or that the cherem was right at any time, is being highly disrespectful of the Gr"a.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Just another forum, but the stories quoted in that thread have several sources.

http://old2.ih.chabad.info/forums/theforum_he/viewtopic.php?t=8061&sid=2d9736cabfb0cdb778a05eceb8dd693f

Given those events, can you honestly say that the cherem might have not been wrong at its time?

Pay special attention to last paragraph of page 18 and page 19 of http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf

IMHO anyone that can say that the Gr"a wasn't mislead, or that the cherem was right at any time, is being highly disrespectful of the Gr"a.
What do those stories have to do with the seven reasons given which seem to have basis in fact?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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What do those stories have to do with the seven reasons given which seem to have basis in fact?
Which seven reasons are you referring to? The ones brought by R Wein, or those quoted in זמיר עריצים (not exactly the same IIRC).

Which of those reasons are a justification for דיני נפשות?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 04:11:00 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Which seven reasons are you referring to? The ones brought by R Wein, or those quoted in זמיר עריצים)not exactly the same IIRC).

Which of those reasons are a justification for דיני נפשות?
I have no justification for dinei nefashos. Was it sanctioned by the GRA?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline cholent

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Just another forum, but the stories quoted in that thread have several sources.

http://old2.ih.chabad.info/forums/theforum_he/viewtopic.php?t=8061&sid=2d9736cabfb0cdb778a05eceb8dd693f

Given those events, can you honestly say that the cherem might have not been wrong at its time?

Pay special attention to last paragraph of page 18 and page 19 of http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf

IMHO anyone that can say that the Gr"a wasn't mislead, or that the cherem was right at any time, is being highly disrespectful of the Gr"a.
That's quite a strong statement. I would more quickly say that anyone who suggested the Gra was misled is being greatly disrespectful of the Gra
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline aygart

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That's quite a strong statement. I would more quickly say that anyone who suggested the Gra was misled is being greatly disrespectful of the Gra
But that wouldn't lead to the intended outcome?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline zh cohen

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That's quite a strong statement. I would more quickly say that anyone who suggested the Gra was misled is being greatly disrespectful of the Gra

Why?

Offline cholent

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Why?
Are you so comfortable saying that the Vilna Gaon, whose brilliance and insight I could not possibly do justice to, was easily misled by others into taking such drastic action? That is a terrible accusation to make against such a gadol and against his daas Torah
Don't ask stupid questions and you won't get stupid answers

Offline zh cohen

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Are you so comfortable saying that the Vilna Gaon, whose brilliance and insight I could not possibly do justice to, was easily misled by others into taking such drastic action? That is a terrible accusation to make against such a gadol and against his daas Torah
Are you so comfortable saying that all of the Chassidim were koferim and everything else described in the cherem?

Someone was wrong in this whole story. There are three options;
1 - All of the Chassidim
2 - The Gr'a
3 - The witnesses

Now, which of the three do you think is the most charitable version of events? Or is there another option?

Offline Yammer

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Are you so comfortable saying that the Vilna Gaon, whose brilliance and insight I could not possibly do justice to, was easily misled by others into taking such drastic action? That is a terrible accusation to make against such a gadol and against his daas Torah

Are you so comfortable saying that all of the Chassidim were koferim and everything else described in the cherem?

Someone was wrong in this whole story. There are three options;
1 - All of the Chassidim
2 - The Gr'a
3 - The witnesses

Now, which of the three do you think is the most charitable version of events? Or is there another option?
As was stated above many were fearful that chassidus was another false Mashiach, which had a terrible and tragic effect. Physically and spiritually.

Shabsai Tzvi had many gedolim that believed him in the beginning. Why is it hard to believe that the Gra was reluctant to let chasidus grow into a serious movement that according to what he was hearing can devastate a Klal Yisroel that was still reverberating from the Shabsai Tzvi effect? Had they Nipped the bud with ST it would have save an untold amount of grief, pain and despair.