Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16821 times)

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
As was stated above many were fearful that chassidus was another false Mashiach, which had a terrible and tragic effect. Physically and spiritually.

Shabsai Tzvi had many gedolim that believed him in the beginning. Why is it hard to believe that the Gra was reluctant to let chasidus grow into a serious movement that according to what he was hearing can devastate a Klal Yisroel that was still reverberating from the Shabsai Tzvi effect? Had they Nipped the bud with ST it would have save an untold amount of grief, pain and despair.

You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3281
  • Total likes: 193
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.
why couldnt he have been right?

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
why couldnt he have been right?

Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.

Offline aro123

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2012
  • Posts: 129
  • Total likes: 24
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
Well the "current" one is so he wasn't that wrong....
If you look at what happened with the moshiachnics of chabad and breslov you see what could have happened to all chasidus without the cherem
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 06:42:49 PM by aro123 »

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10032
  • Total likes: 3778
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.
or could have eventually led to that. Some say it has for some people. Arvach arva tzarich.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
That has not and cannot be proven until we know what would have been without the cherem.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline chinagel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 3281
  • Total likes: 193
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
we can agree the alter rebbe wasnt mashiach, so if ppl thought he was that makes him a moshiach sheker. (didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)
in what way was he factually incorrect?

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
« Reply #141 on: June 11, 2017, 06:43:50 PM »
Well the "current" one is so he wasn't that wrong....
If you look at what happened with the moshiachnics of chabad and breslov you see what could have happened to all chasidus without the cherem



leave that conversation to the thread already existing please

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10032
  • Total likes: 3778
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com

it still cannot be totally ignored and used to prove anything.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
or could have eventually led to that.

Is chassidus as a philosophy kfira or not? The Gra wrote that it is (not that it might become).

Was he right or wrong?

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
(didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)

I was not the one who brought ST into this discussion.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10032
  • Total likes: 3778
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Is chassidus as a philosophy kfira or not? The Gra wrote that it is (not that it might become).
That seems to be a machlokes between the GRA and the Baal Hatanya. His reasoning for calling it kefira was based on true information. This all have agreed upon.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
That seems to be a machlokes between the GRA and the Baal Hatanya. His reasoning for calling it kefira was based on true information. This all have agreed upon.

And yet, there are no frum yidden today (as far as I am aware) that follow Shitas Ha'Gra

I am also not aware of any conversation the Gra had with anyone who held of this shita.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10032
  • Total likes: 3778
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
And yet, there are no frum yidden today (as far as I am aware) that follow Shitas Ha'Gra

I am also not aware of any conversation the Gra had with anyone who held of this shita.
That is irrelevant to the conversation.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
it still cannot be totally ignored and used to prove anything.

Except that there are only a tiny number of people that believe in anything close to Kfirah.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 830
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
That is irrelevant to the conversation.

Except that the Gra tasked his talmid to write a book (Nefesh Ha'chaim) explaining his shita, and it ended up agreeing (or being closer to) the shita of Chabad.