Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16813 times)

Offline zh cohen

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we can agree the alter rebbe wasnt mashiach, so if ppl thought he was that makes him a moshiach sheker. (didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)
in what way was he factually incorrect?

You might want to read up.on the difference between a "potential" Moshiach and a Moshiach sheker

Offline Yammer

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You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.

Of course chasidus isn't another ST. Its the total opposite.

However when trying to understand the picture, the events of that time period gives you an idea.

 It has nothing to do with the greatness of the Gra. Chasidim were making changes to things that scared many to the extent that they believed that it was only a matter of time before it became a ST.  I don't understand why you consider it derogatory to the Gra. He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.

Offline aro123

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Except that there are only a tiny number of people that believe in anything close to Kfirah.
That is thanks to the cherem

Offline aygart

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We are going in circles here. Time to exit.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline zh cohen

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That is thanks to the cherem

Based on what are you making this statement? What changes of course can you point to that took place after the cherem?

Offline zh cohen

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Of course chasidus isn't another ST. Its the total opposite.

However when trying to understand the picture, the events of that time period gives you an idea.

 It has nothing to do with the greatness of the Gra. Chasidim were making changes to things that scared many to the extent that they believed that it was only a matter of time before it became a ST.  I don't understand why you consider it derogatory to the Gra. He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.

I agree with everything you said here. (In fact I said most of what you said in different words throughout this thread).

Others said that to claim that the Gra had false/misleading information is derogatory, and I disagreed with them.

Offline ExGingi

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He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.
Where do you take that from?

There were Chassidim in Vilna, might have not been that many in תקל״ב but by תקמ״ב there was definitely a recognizable presence in Vilna.


I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline elit

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I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest

Offline Yehuda57

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I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
Lol, you're cute.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline Yammer

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Where do you take that from?

There were Chassidim in Vilna, might have not been that many in תקל״ב but by תקמ״ב there was definitely a recognizable presence in Vilna.




I stand Corrected. My explanation would only apply to the first one.

Offline gozalim

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regarding the myth that the cherem "tempered" chassidus:
it originates in the מקור ברוך's fiction of a biography and propogated by the likes of מכבדי דעת תורה like assaf and his ilk.

Mondshine documented the discrepancies of the מקור ברוך in an academic article (probably in יגדיל תורה)decades before the ad-hominem piece on shtruem.net (I'll post it when I find it)

ETA: יגדיל תורה (נ"י) שנה א' חוב' יב (אלול תשל"ז) ע' מב-מג
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 02:43:32 AM by gozalim »

Offline a mirrer

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I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
I heard from someone in la who Reb simcha wasserman told him that the chafetz Chaim said to Reb elchanan that now I hindsight we see that the cherem was a mistake

Offline aygart

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The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline chaim0m

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Mondshine in this case engages in biased conjecture which is contrary to the accepted academic or rabbinic opinion, you can see here a nice summary of the validity and debate surrounding the meeting of the Tzemach Tzekdek with the Aruch Hashulchan.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/301684667/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%90-123-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E-%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7#download&from_embed
travelcm

Offline gozalim

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Mondshine in this case engages in biased conjecture which is contrary to the accepted academic or rabbinic opinion, you can see here a nice summary of the validity and debate surrounding the meeting of the Tzemach Tzekdek with the Aruch Hashulchan.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/301684667/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%90-123-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E-%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7#download&from_embed
he makes the same mistake of taking the shturem.net article seriously. Ignore that version and read the יגדיל תורה version.
And even Henkin, when he's done, concedes the evidence is against the story act just suggest we accept the story on authority