Author Topic: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?  (Read 16815 times)

Offline chaim0m

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What Henkin argues (based on יגדיל תורה as well) is that there is no reason to believe he fabricated the story. In fact he points out we have two independent sources that the meeting indeed occurred (Rav Maimon). What he does say is that the details are not reliable since that was the literary style of the day to exaggerate depending on ones perspective. The fact the that the meeting occurred though is pretty clear, if we were to use the 'Mondshine methodology' to discredit anyone that ever reported anything inaccurately there wouldn't be any chassidish stories that happened either (or maybe any stories at all). Clearly Mondshine has an agenda this is especially evident in the sharpness of the way he expresses himself against the Torah Temimah.
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Offline gozalim

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What Henkin argues (based on יגדיל תורה as well) is that there is no reason to believe he fabricated the story. In fact he points out we have two independent sources that the meeting indeed occurred (Rav Maimon). What he does say is that the details are not reliable since that was the literary style of the day to exaggerate depending on ones perspective. The fact the that the meeting occurred though is pretty clear, if we were to use the 'Mondshine methodology' to discredit anyone that ever reported anything inaccurately there wouldn't be any chassidish stories that happened either (or maybe any stories at all). Clearly Mondshine has an agenda this is especially evident in the sharpness of the way he expresses himself against the Torah Temimah.
if the meeting has happened, but the reported contents are a proven fabrication, then there's no reason to believe the צ"צ endorsed the nonsense about the התנגדות.
And that's the 'source' of the myth

Offline chaim0m

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I would agree mostly, my point is that on certain issues mondshine has no reliability his methodology is more problematic than others.
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Offline gozalim

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I would agree mostly, my point is that on certain issues mondshine has no reliability his methodology is more problematic than others.
אה"נ


( R' Y. Mondshine A"H is not the topic of this thread,  so let's not go there now - he worked in the Hebrew University as a librarian and is a known researcher).

Not being familiar with the quote, but being familiar with some history, and my (inside) view of Chassidus (Chabad), the quote seems odd (to say the least). Which is why I was OK quoting not only Mondshine, but bringing it from a certain website that tends to represent only its owner's and editor's point of view, rather than a broader spectrum which exists within the Chabad-Lubavitch community.
...

I don't know what the Tzemach Tzedek said, I wasn't there and I haven't seen any corroboration. Is it possible that credit was given to the רדיפות וחרמות? Possible, as I said before וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ including the legal status vis-a-vis the Russian government.  But the specifics (which might be an interpretation) saying that Chassidus might have gone "too far" just don't make sense.
Mondshine notwithstanding, there's no valid source to credit the חרמות with 'saving' chassidus, nor for its implied racism that chassidus needed saving.

Offline aygart

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אה"נ

Mondshine notwithstanding, there's no valid source to credit the חרמות with 'saving' chassidus, nor for its implied racism that chassidus needed saving.
Racism?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline Yehuda57

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Racism?

Chassidim are sometimes called "black"
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline aygart

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Chassidim are sometimes called "black"
So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline Yehuda57

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So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics

Is this thread the black on black crime I've heard so much about?
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline aygart

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Is this thread the black on black crime I've heard so much about?
Maybe, but didn't someone say earlier that now everyone is the same anyhow?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics
Hey, wasn't the Gr"a called החסיד?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chaim0m

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Yeah along with the חסידים הראשונים in Brachos  ;)
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Offline ExGingi

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Yeah along with the חסידים הראשונים in Brachos  ;)
Yeah, but those didn't wear black (nor did many of the Chassidim in the time of the Gr"a - which was one of the complaints against them. ;) )
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Yeah, but those didn't wear black (nor did many of the Chassidim in the time of the Gr"a - which was one of the complaints against them. ;) )
It was? I didn't even know that. That would be a very strong complaint.
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline ExGingi

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It was? I didn't even know that. That would be a very strong complaint.


That's printed page 15 (page 10 of the pdf) out of http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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That's printed page 15 (page 10 of the pdf) out of http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf
okay so what is your answer to that?
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.